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(Rock)-Can't-Make-It-Rain-(Bass,-Leads-and-production)

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78 comments:

F-Jam Alert said...

Project initiated:

http://fjamstudios.blogspot.com/2009/01/rock-cant-make-it-rain-bass-drums-and.html<-- Click this

Keeper said...

I really like your sound on this one Marc!

I just gotta get used to using 48k and 24bit. I have the gear to do those specs no problem. Just gotta remember to toggle over.

I'm pretty sure if I forget all I gotta do is go back and toggle over and send you a new set of tracks.

Keeper said...

Drum ideas linked

http://www.4shared.com/file/78935573/ef221bb7/CANT_MAKE_IT_RAIN_DRUM_TEST1.html<--Click this

Marc said...

Wow. You're a pretty good drummer. Most of it I think is usable if not all. I might want to make some changes in the verse......playing the rimshot on the down beat instead of the upbeat. But then again this is not mixed in good yet....So it's hard to say.Let me load up a midi drum kit and tinker with it for a minute. Good playing!

Marc said...

Plus we are hearing this with out a bass.

Keeper said...

Thanks. Glad you like. It's all dry, and I have the separates, so I could move the rimshot for that part to the downbeat if you want to hear it.

I didn't want to do too much work on it given my record for finding your feel right away.

I can supply a midi track of the drums too if that helps. It can be tweaks quite easily. Let me know.

Did you see I posted an excerpt on "Diva" too?

Marc said...

Ni I didn't know about Diva. I'll check it out.

F-Jam Alert said...

Marc-

If you unsubscribed from the googlegroup that send you notification of ALL activity regardless of project, then you need to go and subscribe to your own projects individually. There is a link at the top of the project pages to subscribe. You need to subscribe to them separately if you unsubscribed from the googlegroup. It should guide you from that link.

If you didn't do this already it's probably why you missed the DIVA post.

I believe you have 5 projects posted on the QUICKSTART page. You need to subscribe to them all individually if you did indeed unsubscribe the googlegroup.

I recommend to all new users to subscribe to the googlegroup (and I actually do it for them) so they can monitor ALL activity, but I understand if you choose to only monitor your own. You do have that choice, but you gotta follow through with the individual subscriptions if you go that way.

Keeper said...

Oh and BTW Marc, I have Sonar set to 48k, and 24 bit, so you'll get that res when the time is right. SHould make for a dandy master mix with some work. Once you get the drumwork you want I can do some tweaks to make it super tight to the click.

There's no hurry if you want to listen a bit before you make decisions. I myself like to let my ear guide me. The sidestick can be raised in the mix if you want to hear it without moving it to the downbeat. I have a lot of control over the mix. Just didn't do it in lieu of your feedback.

I can post the midi if you just want to do some tests yourself. Not a problem.

Marc said...

Can you put up midi track of drums?
I think this could use some modest tamborine too.

Marc said...

xx

Marc said...

oops was trying to bump the page! guess I shouldn't have used xx. lol

Marc said...

I guess you can delete this stuff

Keeper said...

MIDI drums attached. I'm going to render another one too with the drums separated so you can work on them easier.


http://www.4shared.com/file/78976471/e7db1982/Cant_Make_It_Rain_Drums.html<-- Click this

Keeper said...

Here's a format 1 midi sequence of the drums where each drum is on it's own track, making it easier to edit and tweak.

http://www.4shared.com/file/78980781/c53e7319/Cant_Make_It_Rain_Drums_split_.html<-- Click this

Marc said...

I modified the midi track. I muted a lot of stuff but I don't think that will transfer in the file. I guess I'll delete unwanted notes as long as you have the original.

Marc said...

I made one more change to th midi drums at the beginning. I reposted the file

cj_spotty said...

Good evening, Mark.

My name is Denis, i`m writing music too.

My friend sent to me link on your track "Can`t make it rain" today. I listened it, nice work! You are searching for drum and bass for this track. I worked a little and made them for you. Maybe you`ll be interested for it - file is here:

http://miro.ac3filter.net/1245.html?download

It`s not finished yet, if you`ll find it right, i`ll finilize it, maybe
add some background instruments and sounds. It was not an easy work
because your track is nice without drums and bass, so i try to made
them as a background instruments.

I`m working on my second album now, also searching for new friends-musicians.

Sorry for my english.

F-Jam Alert said...

Hi Denis, and welcome to F-Jam Studios.

Check your e-mail. We sent you an invitation to join the studio blog, so your comments will bypass moderation. We use moderation on comments from non-members, to filter out spam. So accept the invitation in your e-mail and become a emeber, and your comments will show immediately after you post them.

Also we've sent you a couple Private Messages on the forums.

Enjoy your membership here. There are many good folks for you to meet and collaborate with....

Let us know if you have any questions...

Keeper said...

Hi Marc-


I imported your revised drum midi and rendered it with MY KIT. Hopefully it sounds as you intended it. I don't hear the sidestick in this mix. If that's your intention, and this sounds as you intended, I can post the separates.

I have the percussion muted for now as it didn't seem to do anything on my kit. I will use a GM set to render that percussion, once we've finalized this drum setup. Does this mix sound as you intended? I would listen specifically to the sidestick. If you removed it, then we should be good to go.

I like the revisions.

http://www.4shared.com/file/79061026/220e9bcd/CANT_MAKE_IT_RAIN_Revised_DRUM_Render.html<-- Click this

Keeper said...

After listening a few times, I do hear the sidestick. I hear that you moved it as we had discussed. It's probably a good idea for me to render seps, and mix this a bit. EQ, and level will help this a lot. The kit is purposely dry and virgin so we can add what we want. That sidestick is so low in this mix I thought it was absent.

Also we have choices of different kits too. You have a miriad of choices really.

I like the revisions. It is similar to what I was planning to do. It's good we can work with midi like this. Allows you to take control and saves time. Nice work Marc. I'll do some mixes soon as I get time.

I'm also going to add me to the roster, and post an update for this project. I'm going to capture what I do as a video tutorial, and you'll be able to watch exactly what I do.

:-)

Keeper said...

You have admin of your files area Marc, so you might want to clean that folder up, and delete older, non-pertenant files. This morning I accidentally re-upped your revised midi. That's why it shows with a (2) on the front again.

Marc said...

I hear the sidestick just fine. I remove a lot of note so it only plays every other beat.

Keeper said...

I will listen to the drums alone. In that mix is seems really low to me. Almost non-existent. Could be my monitors, and could be my hearing. I've lost a lot of my hearing from 35 years of playing acoustic kits with bands. It also could be a matter of taste. I had to listen really close to even tell it was there. I am gonna do some EQ work on it just the same. Yes I could tell you eliminated every other sidestick. I was going to do that as well but you beat me to it. Sounds good.

Marc said...

The percussion is just some simple tambourine

Marc said...

I turned up volume on the kick and snare. maybe thats why. Wasn't really paying attention to levels. Just put up a quick mix for reference.

Keeper said...

------------------------
Quote Marc...

I turned up volume on the kick and snare. maybe thats why. Wasn't really paying attention to levels. Just put up a quick mix for reference.
---------------------------


Yeah that's probably it. It's relationally low. I will soon raise the hats and the sidestick just a hair in the mix. I know they are support so should be low, but justa bit hard for me to hear. No worries. I am happy with your edits. You simplified the kick, and sidestick, which I agree with. I was going to do that myself, so we are in agreement on this. It's probably a simple matter of adding a little bit of midrange to make those two areas be more present in the mix. Cool..

Keeper said...

---------------
Quote Marc ...

The percussion is just some simple tambourine
---------------


I'll find the assignment on my kit and add this in the next mix I post too.

Marc said...

I hear tambourine on your revised midi 2.

Keeper said...

---------------
Quote Marc ...

I hear tambourine on your revised midi 2.
---------------


That's actually YOUR revised midi sequence Mark. Remember I said I accidentally uploaded it this morning. I mentioned that when I suggested you clean up the project folder here.

I meant to upload my rendered mp3 (that used your revised drums), but mistakenly uploaded your revised midi track. Of course you will hear the tamborine. It was made with your drum kit. No doubt your drum kit was probably a general midi kit. If I had used a general midi drum kit I would have heard the tamborine as well. I don't think this vintage rock drum kit I used is general midi, so the tamboring was silent for me. That's easy enough for me to correct. I can just transpose your midi until your sequence plays my tamborine. It just means my tamboring on this drumkit is on a different midi note assignment, or piano key. If I find the difference and tranpose your tamborine it'll play on mine too. I just didn't take the time to do that. Next mix I post will have your tamborine in it. Not to worry.

I could also just use a general midi soundsource to play your percussion track and it'd probably play without edit, that is if YOU used a general midi soundset when you sequenced this. That's the whole idea of general midi. If we both used general midi it should all sound without edit.

Unfortuantely the general midi soundsets that I have setup are all lower quality so I don't use them for the final stage. I do have some much better GM soundsets, but not loaded. If I need to use a GM soundset I use the one that comes with Sonar.

So we have absolutely nothing to worry about with the tamborine. It will be on the next mix. I'm just explaining why it wasn't included YET. I was more concerned with the drum assignment. So next mix should be all inclusive.

F-Jam Alert said...

Marc-


Please notice Keeper has been added to the roster for this since you accepted his drum audition, and the latest mix and date have been updated. Also added a coment about the roster. As I did this I was screen capturing with an open mic, and I'm fixing to post this video for you to watch. It'll serve to clarify "project status" editing, and I'll put this video in the archives for all to access.

I'll also be announcing the status change to the entire membership, and we can take "drums" out of the "wanted" for this project. I'll be sending you this video soon. I can make video for anything you don't understand about the systems here.

Marc said...

I listened to Denis's audition. Sounds nice.
I invited him to post a bass track.

Marc said...

Why not play real drums on this song?

Keeper said...

V-drums are real. Acoustic drums played with sticks.

Keeper said...

Are you set on using this tamborine track Marc? I didn't think this suited the rythm. That is assuming it sounded the same as yours.

cj_spotty said...

Thanks for interest, Mark.

I listened current variant of drums (by Keeper) , it`s more jazzy than my. IMHO this variant is too speedy.
As i understand source, this is a love song in "rock" style - so it cannot be so speedy.

I refreshed drums in my variant - now them are natural plus added cymbals and crashes, you can listen it on previous link ( http://miro.ac3filter.net/1245.html?download ).

I created mix from Keeper`s drums and my bassline. Well, IMHO it`s not variant because my bassline was oriented on rock style, not jazz.

If you, Mark, still need bassline in midi, i`ll upload it to project path.

Keeper said...

Yes Denis, that is one way of looking at it. There are many ways to approach any progression. My drums were created based on his guitar. His guitar is speedy, and jazzy. So you could even say the guitar is not suited for love song for the same reason, but it's open to interp. I've already told Marc, that it's fine with me if he took a different direction if he wanted to.

He liked the drums very much when he heard them, so I guess it suited, but he has the right to change his mind, and I would not be offended. Your work is good too. A little straight forward, but maybe that's what he wanted. It's all cool with me. Myself I kinda like the changeup to make it more interesting.

I did like your track as well Denis. Nice work.

Marc said...

So you played that with V-drums? OK You must have quantized everything.

Keeper said...

If you wanted to persue the jazzy direction Marc, I could provide a suitable bassline I'm sure. That is if you have no jazz oriented bassists. You could even try to develop both avenues and decide later.

I liked Denis' sustained keys orchestration. Added a lot of depth, and dimension.

Marc said...

I'm not going to be able to spend much more time on drum track. lol I've got too many other duties over hear. Got other songs to post

Marc said...

So you played V drums. OK. You must have quantized everything. I gueass with v-drums you have more kit choices.

Keeper said...

Yes it's V-drums, and some of it is quantized. It doesn't line up exactly with the tamborine.

I play to a metronome on a regular basis. Depending on the res you zoom in on it's not right on the lines of the grid on everything.

I practice to a metronome regularly behind the kit, so my tracks are usually easy to quantize.

I do have a real acoustic kit with close mics, but I usually only do that for my own projects. I've been burned too many times with people disappearing in the middle of a project to do all that. It's 10 times the work. On my own projects I know I will not disappoint myself by disappearing so I've made it a point to only do V-drums or program on others projects.

If you've been through this as many times as I have you'd no doubt take the same policy.

It's perfectly fine with me if you continue looking for drums or drummer who will take a chance with you.

Marc said...

It's really hard to say when things haven't been mixed yet.

Marc said...

even my backing track was just a quick mix

Keeper said...

Yeah I have a ton of projects of my own, so I agree not to spend too much time, and energy.

There is a beauty to both ways. From what I've seen Marc, you mostly want basic beats, so really programming should work for you.

The things that an acoustic close miced kit can do over triggered are usually quite subtle, and I doubt you'd miss it. It takes a lot of time for mic position, and engineering time to mix/eq etc. I have the equipment, but I don't really have the time, or inclination. I'm a songwriter too, and so I don't spend that kind of time on the drums usually. I'm usually too busy writing and producing myself. Just as you say the drums are not a priority for me.

I have a whole cd worth of acoustic drumming I did for a fellow for a cd, and he didappeared after i did the drumming, and never followed through with the project. Just stopped responding after all my work. So I don't do that anymore. I even had a contract with him. But it's not worth my time to persue him on it. I just moved past it and focus on my agendas.

I have hundreds of tracks in my archives.

Having said that I have enjoyed working on this. I respect your decisions any way you go.

Marc said...

V-drums are fine with me Keeper.

It would be best for me if you put your version together (add bass if you like) so we will have something. I need to direct my attention to other songs.

I thought CJ's bass was to busy and too electronic sounding.
His rock approach to the drums sound nice though.

I have kind of a rock mentality on this song. I'm not sure if it really needs any drums in the opening. It should be kind of quiet I think or at least rythm should be soft.

This song is very poiniant and dosn't need a lot busyness.

I thought the tambourine kind of warmed things up. I guess it's the
Mama's and the Papa's in me ... lol

Marc said...

I do think CJ has a good dramatic sense.

Keeper said...

I am not sure what I was hearing here for tamborine is what you are hearing Marc. Mostly single hits, which is not really rythmic to me.

We all have different ears for things and different approaches. That's why your decisions stand regardless of our interpretations.

Your guitar is speedy, and so could be jazzy, and still be a love song. Especially if you consider the lyrics. Where it goes into the jazz you speak of "run to me" which implies speed. Love songs don't need to be low key, but as we've said it's interpretation. I did like Denis' work, and thought it could fit the song if that's how you interpret it.

It could be my monitors, but I thought he was playing a real bass on it, not midi. With today's technology even the best ear can be fooled as to what's really the instrument and what is sampled and triggered.

The bottom line is what you want on your track Marc. Either of our approaches are musically correct.

I am thick skinned on these matters so your decisions are cool with me.

I am going to try some bass for the jazz aspect, and audition some of my ideas for tamborine. Hopefully it will show what I consider more rythm. It would be a smart thing to go ahead with the rock approach too. Let Denis continue his work, and use what you like after the fact. He's doing good work, so if you like it go with it.

One thing Denis is doing that I do as well is to put up a framework first and then develop it after accepted. Saves time, energy, and lets the music guide him.

So indeed I will do as you've asked Marc. I suggest you develop it with Denis too. He's sounding good.

Marc said...

Actually i was unable to program a shaking tambourine. Maybe you can do this.
You've definitely opened up some ideas with this song. And it does sound nice. Let's hear the finished product.

This is not my quote but...."Good songs are not written, they are rewritten"

Marc said...

If you don't want tambourine don't worry about it.

Marc said...

Having said what I said about CJ's bass. It may sound great once it's mixed in properly.

Keeper said...

We'll do so auditions on tamborine Marc. Also, just because I don't like something is no reason not to keep it.

It's happened more than once that I didn't like something, another audition did, and the author chose against my likes and it stood. The rule is that your choice stands. We can voice our opinions, and once you make your decision we are supposed to not fight it. Artists rarely agree, so it's gotta be that way to keep the peace. Even if I don't agree, I will respect your decisions. It's what I expect on my own projects.

If we all thought the same way about all this how boring would that be?

You could even make two separate folders to keep the two versions separate for tracks. And I can even do separate project pages, to split up the discussions.

I'm aware that you may decide you like the rock way better in the end. I will still do my best to develop this jazz way. Nuff said.

Marc said...

CJ....what country are you in if you don't mind my asking. I don't know how to send a personal message here.

F-Jam Alert said...

Marc-

I had the system reset your password. It should have notified you of this via e-mail. The PMs a done through the forums, and it's linked on the dropdown menu at the top. Check your yahoo and see if you see an e-mail about reset password.

Once we get you logged into the forums as "Marc B" you'll be able to send PMs from the menu. Once in don't log out and Firefox will recognize you and you'll be logged in when you use the dropdown menu.

Marc said...

i think i got a password reset last night. I have it written down.

Marc said...

Even though it says "Topic" it's still private?

F-Jam Alert said...

orums" on the dropdown menu at the top. Private Messages, and "Password reset are on the dropdown menu under "Forums". If you never log out of the forums it should know who you are using Firefox, and you'll be able to use it from the menus.

Marc said...

Thanks. I was able to send message.

F-Jam Alert said...

Yes. it's the topic of the private message. We should probably move this convo to the HELP forum to cut down on google sending out e-mails about HELP. Now that you are back into the forums that's the sort of thing we use the forums for. Non-project discussions. Cool.

cj_spotty said...

Sorry, Marc, i`ve lost your question here... May you ask it again?

MLINYHI said...

Nice track.

Keeper said...

Working on the bass for this. Been occupied with other things. Nothing to show yet. Soon.... :-)

Keeper said...

Ok had to stop work in the studio here, for real life, so I'm posting an excerpt of an idea for fretless bass. If you like the feel, I can tighten things up a bit (that roll in the intro needs a tweak), but this is the general feel I'm hearing.

There's a lot that can be done to make this sparkle, if you comitted to this. I won't itemize but lots could be done. If you don't like it, no worries. You can develop Denis' work, and it'll be fine with me. I have tons of work to move onto so it's your call.

http://www.4shared.com/file/80817989/702f0387/Cant_Make_It_Rain_Bass_Idea_1.html<-- Click this

Marc said...

The bass sonuds nice. If you get a chance put a mix together with your drums and bass.

Keeper said...

Ok will do. I'll clean it up a bit too. :-)

Keeper said...

I'm planning to work on this in the studio tomorrow. Hopefully will have a mix to post. At the outside maybe Wed. I have the bass through the whole song now, but I have a note or two to tweak, and I will address a drum mix. EQ etc.

Keeper said...

I need to take a break and come back to this with fresh ears. Been a long session at the console. I think I need to put some bass in the outro too. Maybe something similar to the intro.

http://www.4shared.com/file/81682793/25cc0e55/Cant_Make_It_Rain_Mix_1.html<--- Click this

Marc said...

I had a listen. Sounds pretty cool.
ON the chorus at the Dm chord you can play F instead of the root. And then go down to E on the E7 chord.

Em/G bass, Bm/F# bass, Dm/F bass, E7

I don't know if this will sound right though.
You don't have to follow this pattern exactly though. Perhaps you are beyond the stage of changing notes around. Sounds good so far.

Marc said...

You probably already know this stuff

Marc said...

G# dim works well instead of the B dim also.

OK I'll but out!

Marc said...

G# dim works well instead of B dim also. The other day I was working in a bass pattern for the opening of the chorus.

Ok I'll but out!

Keeper said...

I can always change notes. I think I used different notes before but it didn't sound right as your intonation on the vocals is not right on the money. I didn't use the root earlier but I changed it back because the vocs conflicted to my ear. I'll try changing it.

Needs bass in the outro eh?

Marc said...

Yes I would have soft bass in the outro just to give it a fuller sound.

Keeper said...

Marc-

I did the bass audition strictly by ear, not paying attention to key or chords. So I'm going to have to get the document you posted out, and find and identify the chords in the chorus you speak of. I will be using a keyboard as reference to find the notes. I am quite sure I can find and do what you've asked, but it'd help me quite a bit in this identification if you could do an outline of the chorus/chords, and include the lyrics under the chords. That would expedite my work greatly.

I do knowledge of music theory, but I'm slower than a lot at this (drums being my main instrument).

If you could do this for me you'd get quicker results.


Will do some soft bass on the outro too.

TIA

-Freddy

Marc said...

Chords and lyrics are posted.

http://www.4shared.com/file/81899909/ce2ebec9/CMIR__chords_and_lyrics.html

Keeper said...

---------------
Quote Marc ...

Chords and lyrics are posted.

http://www.4shared.com/file/81899909/ce2ebec9/CMIR__chords_and_lyrics.html
---------------


Thanks that will help. I'll refer back to your comments for note changes and this new doc.

kenny_b said...

If you are still interested I would audition for bass on this. Let me know.

Marc said...

Kenny, I will be posting some more files. I have a rock drum track that can be used as well. I haven't done much with it yet. You can choose that or Keeper drums. I'll get it up soon.