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(Blues) Forsake Reality (Mix/Master)

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190 comments:

F-Jam Alert said...

Project initialted:

http://fjamstudios.blogspot.com/2009/01/blues-blue-drums-keys-bass-arrangement.html

Inngr8 said...

On the off chance you want some lyrics, your tune was talking to me, and this is what I've come up with so far. Lemme know if you are interested and if I should continue writing. Regardless, it's a very emotive composition. Lots of hidden power and turmoil.
Phil

Untitled (lyrics for Blueguitsamvoc)
V1
Our love was a work of art
‘til tragedy came
Can’t mend a broken heart
Dying in shame
All of that emptiness
Will never be filled
C1
Embrace insanity
Drowning in the tears, like falling rain
Embrace insanity
Choking down the years I’ll live in vain

MLINYHI said...

Hi Inngr8-
The lyrics sound good. I would be interested in hearing them. The syllable count I think is a little less than the sample stuff I was playing around with so I think I would have to hear how you are phrasing them.

Thanks

Keeper said...

Sean-

Maybe try singing Phil's lyrics, and let him hear it. Maybe some adjustments could be done to make it fit.

Inngr8 said...

Sean - I couldn't sing my way out of a wet paper bag, but I'll try to explain what I was hearing, if that would be helpful. My literal syllable count is shorter than what you were singing, but I'm hearing many of the words held and elongated. I'm sure there must be a technical term to describe the technique. Would it help if I created a time line to fit the lyrics into? And all I provided was a rough draft - I'm totally ok with rewriting to get it where you want it. More than anything else, I was trying to capture the feel and emotion of the music. If you think I'm on the right track in that regard, we can use a shoehorn and/or a staple gun to get the lyrics where you are most comfortable.

Phil

MLINYHI said...

Hey Phil,

I will try to sing the lyrics (as Fred suggested) but they probably will not sound exactly as you are hearing them because I wont know which notes you are holding etc.

I am working 12 hour shifts for the next 3 days so wont have any time to play until Sun or Mon. I will see what I come up with then and post it.

Thanks!

Keeper said...

It shouldn't be too hard to show with text how you are hearing the syllableization Phil. I suggest an outline to help guide.

Keeper said...

ere's a basic drum framework that might aid in singing (depending on wether this fits your idea of the song or not). Once you get the arrangement solidified where you want it I can go back in and develop this to augment with rolls etc. Just wanted to keep it simple for now to help build.

http://www.4shared.com/file/80981980/ead4552b/Blue_keeper_Drum_Framework.html<--- Click this

MLINYHI said...

Hey Fred,

Listened to the drums. Sound good but I was hearing more of a cut-time drum on it. Like a slower blues song.

Thanks

Keeper said...

Half time ok.

Keeper said...

Here's a roughed out halftime framework.

http://www.4shared.com/file/81286161/5c24da45/Blue_keeper_Halftime_Drum_Framework.html<--- Click this


Wonder how this would sound if you went back and forth between the halftime and doubletime. Like maybe use the doubletime during the chorus/bridge, and then drop back to the halftime during the verse. It might help the dynamics, and energy, rather than all down halftime.

Of course we won't know until it's developed a bit more, but I suspect using all halftime might feel like it drags. Won't really know until it's developed more, but it's something to keep under yer hat.

Inngr8 said...

Sorry for the lack of communication on my end - I got caught up in an extensive rewrite. I'm putting together a time-line of what I was hearing for the lyrics I wrote. As I said before, it was just the initial feel I got - I can take another run at it if need be - but I'll get that time-line posted asap.
Phil

MLINYHI said...

Ok, Phil, I got a chance to try out the lyrics and they actually fit pretty easily. Is this close to what you were hearing?

Fred, I definitely like the half time drums better. Maybe it would sound good switching up on the chorus..im not sure.

I didnt put the drums on the last mp3 because I didn't have them on a separate track. I also dont use the computer I record on to go on the internet so I have to move stuff back and forth between computers and its a bit of a pain. If you can add it in easily please do.

Keeper said...

Sounds like you need a USB Flashdrive for moving files to and from your edit machine Sean. They are dirt cheap is you check the papers. Saw one advertized in the paper at Big Lots today. 4 gig for $10. That's practically giving it away, and it's big enough you can move pretty much anything between machines.

Inngr8 said...

And I didn't even get a chance to do the time-line. Sean, that is exactly what I was hearing - nailed it. But my question to you is, are you happy with the feel and emotional direction that takes the song? If so, I've been working on the next verse/chorus lines and can post what I have. If we are still ok at that point, then it's just a day or so to finish a final draft.
Phil

Inngr8 said...

BTW, need to clarify. The song is verse, chorus, longer verse, bridge, extended repetitive chorus? Phil

MLINYHI said...

Hey Fred, Funny you should mention the flash drive. I actually used one today for that purpose (first time I tried). It helped but its only a 64 mg so I will have to pick up a new one. I was burning cds and then moving them back and forth. May try to run out tomm to get one. Dont think we have a big lots around though...

MLINYHI said...

Hey Phil, The feel and emotional direction works fine for me. Some particular words leave me with a few questions though-which I guess you may answer with the other lyrics. "Trajedy" is a pretty powerful word and also the resulting insanity leads me to believe this wasnt just a relationship turned sour. I was just wondering what storyline you had in your head that prompted the lyrics?

MLINYHI said...

I think that is the arrangement of song parts. It wasnt really cemented down and I suppose something may change after playing around for a while. I imagine there will also be a lead guitar in there somewhere-which could fill up part of that longer verse. Its kinda fluid right now....

kenny_b said...

Hello everyone!

I added some bass, a Rhodes Piano, and some organ to your track. I also did a chord chart/fake sheet if anyone needs it.

I could re-track the bass with an actual stringed Fender Jazz rather than the midi triggered samples if you would like.

Best Regards

Kenny B

MLINYHI said...

Kenny,

Sounds good!. Changes the direction for me quite a bit but thats fine. Kinda makes it more ...trippy?? or maybe that was the crazy windows graphics playing in the backround:)(but they were there before...)
I do think a real bass would sound nice but dont think you should bother with it now as there may be some rearranging done.

FYI- I recorded this with the guitar tuned down a step. Had it that way from a previous recording (for vocal key purposes)and never changed it.

MLINYHI said...

Fred,
I bought a 4 gig usb today. Sansdisk from Bestbuy. 12 bucks. Should make it easier...

Inngr8 said...

Had some RL issues at the house last night and this morning, but I am back to work on the song and hope to have more posted later today.
Phil

Keeper said...

Quote MLINYHI ...

Fred,
I bought a 4 gig usb today. Sansdisk from Bestbuy. 12 bucks. Should make it easier...
--------------------------------




That's a good deal, and should make things easier for you!

:-)

Inngr8 said...

Sean,
Got the extended second verse - none of this is set in stone, but it sure is sounding good to me. If you approve this then I'll start on the bridge and final verse - the extended repetitive chorus is almost done as well. As far a the backstory... boy is madly in love with girl, she dies and it's probably his fault - boy self destructs. Partly biographical and partly just the inspiration from listening to your tune.

Untitled (lyrics for Blueguitsamvoc)
V1
Our love was a work of art
‘til tragedy came
Can’t mend a broken heart
Dying in shame
All of that emptiness
Will never be filled
C1
Embrace insanity
Drowning in the tears, like falling rain
Embrace insanity
Choking down the years I’ll live in vain
V2 extended
Brought out the best in me
Until she was gone
Erase the rest of me
Don’t want to go on
Lost my identity
When she left this world

Memories are condemning me
I’m at fault and it’s killing me

She was my everything
My body and soul

Maybe it was just a dream
Stand in the rain and I start to scream

Marc said...

How do I unsubscribe to this

MLINYHI said...

Ok, Phil, Lyrics sound good. Very dark...
I will try to record tomm and post.

PS. I hope u dont really fell this way...

Inngr8 said...

Thanx - I'll try to get finished up tomorrow. Any RL inspiration I'm using for the lyrics is from 35 years ago - I'm well adjusted now... at least as far as anyone knows. :)

F-Jam Alert said...

Took care of Marc's unsubscribe question in private. For those of you who are not looking closely at the e-mail notifications, virtually every one of them has instructions at the bottom for unsubscribing.

Inngr8 said...

First complete draft of the lyrics is done. I'm sure it's gonna require some rewriting after it's had time to "ferment".

Untitled (lyrics for Blueguitsamvoc)
V1
Our love was a work of art
‘til tragedy came
Can’t mend a broken heart
Dying in shame
All of that emptiness
Will never be filled
C1
Embrace insanity,
Drowning in the tears, like falling rain
Forsake reality,
Choking down the years I’ll live in vain
V2 extended
Brought out the best in me
Until she was gone
Erase the rest of me
Don’t want to go on
Lost my identity
When she left this world

Memories are condemning me
I’m at fault and it’s killing me

She was my everything
My body and soul

Maybe it was just a dream
On my knees I start to scream

Bridge
All that’s left are memories… that won’t fade away
Our love was a symphony… that no longer plays
Won’t you please come back for me… I’m going insane

V3
Our love was never safe
Now I’ve let her go
She paid the final price
I’m missing her so
And I pray she’s forgiven me
Can’t believe she’s not here with me
C2 extended
Embrace insanity,
Wander thru my mind, you’re just the same
Forsake reality,
Angry at the Heavens, scream your name
Embrace insanity,
Looking at the world just out of reach
Forsake reality,
Couldn’t learn the lessons life would teach
Embrace insanity,
Drowning in the tears, like falling rain
Forsake reality,
Choking down the years I’ll live in vain
P. Armstrong 1/20/09

MLINYHI said...

Ok, I tried out the rest of the lyrics. I had to guess about how certain parts fit and also leave out a few lines. Probably not exactly as Phil was hearing but not too shabby.
I could not carry the drums or keyboard/bass over as I didnt have the solo tracks. If u can add please do. The guitar is on the left 65%. I did not change the arrangement and guess I wont at this point. There isnt much room for much else. Will probably fade out. The keys/bass and drums should drop right in.


Fred, the portable usb rocks!

Inngr8 said...

Sean - If I could sing, I don't believe I'd have done it any differently. Your voice really helps make the lyrics work as well. Lemme know if there are any weak or awkward spots you would like to have reworked. I know I'm biased, but I really like the way it turned out.
Phil

MLINYHI said...

Hey Phil,

The memories condemning me part-was that where and how you were hearing that area sung? That part was a little confusing.

I dont think there are any spots to change but I also havent listened enough times to be sure. Plus we need to hear how the vocals sound with the keys bass and drums.

So far, so good:)

Inngr8 said...

Your interpretation was right on the money. I left a separation there where there is a slight music change and then again at "maybe it was just a dream". Knowing you were the composer, I was pretty sure you would catch my intention, but I wanted to set it apart with the spacing. The long delay on the final line of the bridge was a great touch I thought. I know that additional instruments might change the entire tone, I'm hoping for as much of the lyric as poss. to survive that tho. But I have absolutely no problems with rewrites if they are needed.
Phil

Keeper said...

I'll post the drum separate as soon as I get into the studio.

Keeper said...

Attaching drum wav separate:

http://www.4shared.com/file/81793076/80ea5ca1/Blue_Drum_Separate.html<--- Click here

Keeper said...

---------------
QUOTE:MLINYHI ...

Fred, the portable usb rocks!
---------------


Sean, I trust they included "safe removal" instructions with that flash drive? You can cause errors on your hard drive if you don't follow the "safe removal" routine. Know what I mean Vern?

kenny_b said...

I will upload my separates ASAP

kenny_b said...

Separates are up. I would still like to try recording the Fender Jazz when I get some time and when we have a mix up with the new parts and vocal.

KB

F-Jam Alert said...

Just a little tip on using the File Manager tha might help you find the latest files that have been uploaded. You notice the files area has columns to organize the information. If you click at the top of the "Time" column several times until the arrow at the top points down, that will bring the latest uploaded to the top of the listing, and it works backwards from newest to oldest uploaded. That cuts way down on having to search through the file listing to find what you are looking for.

Keeper said...

Sean-


Once all of the separates are up (including vocal), I am quite sure some arrangement auditions could be submitted. If you and Phil get the lyrics where you want them and you sing a preliminary final vocal and post the separate that'd help.

It's actually quite easy for me to move parts around and create new ideas for song arrangement.

MLINYHI said...

Hi All,

Thanks for posting up the separate tracks. I downloaded this morning and was going to post them all but ran into an issue. The tracks dont line up for some reason. I tried to get it right but had to stop because i have to work tonight and need to get some sleep. Any ideas on why?

Fred, that sounds like a great idea (moving/arrange) and will do asap.

Keeper said...

Yes I know why Sean. I will upload a version of your guitar that will line up with my drums. Ken's tracks are based on my drums too so once you get my EDITED separate of your guitar, it should all line up for you. You can consider the guitar separate that I post as the guitar separate.

I edited your guitar track a bit to make it stay right with the metronome. I have do this with my own tracks on a regular basis. Tracks that are right with the metronome (click track) are much easier to audition to and it makes this arrangement phase we have been discussing infinitely easier. Because I edited it, it's changed from your original guitar track.

It means I'll be able to put the cursor right on the bar/beats grid and slice and dice your song up very quickly and move things around and try different arrangements.

So really all you have to do is get the band lined up then import your vocal track and find the starting point for the vocals. Once you make your vocal track start where it's supposed to, it should be synced up then. Get the starting point right and the entire track will be right.

We actually have a failsafe trick for getting the alignment right, but what I've said above here should work well.

I guarantee we'll be able to get the alignment right. Take your time about work. There is definitely no hurry. That's the beauty of this online thing. You can do it in your spare time, and it'll eventually get done. It's much more convenient for super busy people, than trying to get with a band in between your busy schedule.

Also, it helps that I setup your 4shared.com account. I have your password and I can help you administer your files area. I'll get ya setup here in a min. You just go along to bed and don't worry about anything. I have it under control for you.

Have a good rest.

Keeper said...

Ok Sean, here's the link for the edited guitar separate:

http://www.4shared.com/file/81964368/598230a6/Blue_Guitar_Separate.html<--- Click this

And here is the link to the " Separates" folder that I created specifically for the separates.

http://www.4shared.com/dir/12092408/75888b32/Separates.html<--- Click this

Keeper said...

http://www.4shared.com/file/81993868/4a50702f/Bass1_blues_f-jam.html<---Click this
http://www.4shared.com/file/81994581/38004eef/Organ_blues_f-jam.html<---Click this
http://www.4shared.com/file/81995302/d5e18e8a/Rhodes_Piano_blues_f-jam.html<---Click this

MLINYHI said...

Hey Fred,

Thanks for explaining that. Why did you have to alter the guitar? Was I off beat time-wise?

Fred, If you enjoy and want to play with the production feel free. I can upload the separate vocals and you can have fun. I was just going to pan things a little to separate. My production skills are limited at best.

Thanks

Keeper said...

I didn't have to tweak it much at all Sean. With the halftime your guitar hits right with the snare, and I just tweaked it a little to make them hit together. All in all your timing is good. As good as any I've seen, including my own.

I am very quick with this sort of edit, so it's no big deal. I am sure I will have a go at a mix, and or arrangement, once everything is posted.

kenny_b said...

One reason the files do not line up by default is because the mp3 conversion shifts the audio slightly. I use a two measure count in on my tracks.

Keeper said...

One difference I've found between Ken's tracks, and my own is two extra measures on his tracks. His started two measures after mine when imported. That was very easy to adjust here. I simply cut two measures off of his tracks and they lined right up. What he was calling a two measure countin amounted to four on my grid. So his tempo setting in his software is either set to half of 114 (which would be 57), or he mistakenly called it a two measure countin. He actually had a four measure countin according to my grid. That might account for the misalignment you spoke of Sean.

As we know 57 and 114 are virtually the same tempo, but one is halftime to the other. Tracks played against a 57 BPM click should sync right to tracks played against 114, (that is once you find the correct starting point).

I adjusted his tracks forward in time two measures, and they started with my project after that. It took me all of 30 seconds to adjust. I now have his separates imported into my project with correct alignment.

Ken is correct when he speaks of using a two measure countin for alignment. It really is most important for aligning leads, and or vocals, or other intricate tracks. Rythm tracks are usually easy to sync up without the counting clicks. If there is ever a problem with leads being misaligned, or vocals (or anything really), it is very easy to get it as the author intended, by using clicks at the beginning of the tracks, just as Ken mentioned. It is a failsafe method of alignment.

It basically amounts to all separate tracks having clicks on the front of the track, and the clicks are used for alignment to the grid. If you import a track with clicks on the front of it, and then take care to line up the clicks from that track with the clicks of the project, then the alignment will be correct. If a lead player comes in on an offbeat or some odd time, using these clicks like this will guarantee it's lined up correctly.

In order to do this though, a click should to be used from the beginning of the project. In other words your starter track should have had countin clicks on it to begin with.

It really hasn't been much of an issue yet, because we've been dealing with rythm section up to now. It is possible I could get the alignment right on your vocal separate but using your first take mix as a reference to see where the vocal starts against the rythm. That's what I had planned to do.

I knew this online collaboration thing was new to you in general, so I didn't mention this before now so as to not add to your confusion Sean. You being an AOL user, and new to the outside world of the net, and getting used to Firefox and the whole cookies thing and how the site works, I figured we'd come to this sooner or later.

I am going to be posting a video tutorial explaining a very easy way to make use of the clicks for alignment. It will make this crystal clear to you once you watch it. Until then don't worry about it. I have the alignment thing under control for now.

Using a click at the front of separate track for alignment is actually standard proceedure, and once you see the big picture on this you can begin using it. For now it's enough that you played against a metronome from the start. That is even more important than the alignment clicks. The alignment is more of an issue for intricate leads, and or melodies, which we've not gotten to just yet. It might be an issue with your vocals, but we'll see, wether or not I can make them start at the right spot in my project by using your first take mix for reference.

As I said the video tutorial I have planned will make this crystal clear to you.

Keeper said...

I have all of Ken's separates imported, and I could easily create a bassless mix for him to jam against. He might want to wait for me to put the vocal separate into the mix though, as the vocals in there could change the way he plays against it. If so we are waiting on your vocal separate then Sean.

Keeper said...

Ok then... Well I guess I'll take a chance and post a couple mixes, and you can use them or not.

Minus Bass Mix For Ken<---Click this


Mix with midi bass<---Click this

MLINYHI said...

Hey Guys,

I have not had any time to do anything the last few days. I work 12 hour night shifts 3 days one week and 4 the next. The days i am working I dont do much else. I am off tommorrow so will post the separate vocal then. -I think tomm is my only day off due to scheduling changes:(


Fred,
Thanks for the timing explanation. I will have to read that a few times:)

kenny_b said...

Cool. So maybe I will have a vocal to track to later today or tomorrow.

kenny_b said...

I think I could knock this one out without the vocal, since I will mimic the midi bass and hopefully make it sound better. Good mix so far. Will there be a guitar solo on this? Sounds like a good backing track for a David Gilmourish type guitar lead.

Need the vocals first before the guitar lead to know where to place the lead.

The ending is very abrupt. I wish we had a more thought out ending. I guess we could fade the last part as we discussed.

Keeper said...

Still plenty of room to create an ending if you hear one. Once we get the vocal to mix, it can be arranged for leads etc, so once we get the parts some arrangement brainstorming could happen.

Keeper said...

I may redo the drums later too depending on how it sounds.

kenny_b said...

I uploaded my bass track. I don't think I nailed the bridge part but the rest sounds solid. May have to redo it.

One thing about the drums....on the chorus part (the Dm part) the organ gets louder but the drums do not really get louder. Seems like the drums should be louder there.

Keeper said...

Right, when we get into serious mix mode that can be addressed. Still very much preliminary.

MLINYHI said...

Hi Guys,
I uploaded the separate vocal track. I apologize for the delay. Its been a busy couple of days.

The mix is sounding very good. Wanna hear it with the vocal....

Let me know if you think I should change anything on it.

F-Jam Alert said...

Maybe it's time to change the title of the song? Something related to Phil's storyline?

Keeper said...

Ok Sean, I'll grab your vocal and put it in the mix, and we can move ahead from there. No worries about being busy man. I surely understand that life takes a lot of time and it's often a struggle to get studio time. I'll post a mix soon.

ac said...

hi, am just intruding to say how i enjoyed the tune. took the liberty of recording a lead guitar over it. i've uploaded it to here:
http://www.4shared.com/dir/12176319/e5d566f3/blue_mix_guitar_solo.html
it was a bit of fun and a better guitarrist could do a better job at it. have a listen to see if you like it.

MLINYHI said...

I was trying to think of a name but I think it may be better to let Phil name it because he obviously has a better knowledge of the lyric backround..

MLINYHI said...

Hey ac,
Thanks for the listen on the lead. Nice blues jam.

MLINYHI said...

Kenny,

Im all for the real bass if you are up for it. Still need to hear how it all comes together. I dont think we have heard everything at the same time yet.

MLINYHI said...

Things move fast. Im used to doing songs by myself and they take forever. I like it better this way:)

MLINYHI said...

Kenny, I could work on an ending if you guys think it'll be better than just fading out.

MLINYHI said...

I had planned on a lead in a few places but not really sure where it will go now. Have to listen to the whole mix first. May have to add something to make room but the song is already 4 min (depending on where we end it) so dunno if we want to add much.

Inngr8 said...

The easiest way to name it would to be pull something from the chorus - if we go that route I'm guessing the two most identifiable titles would be "Embrace Insanity" or "Forsake Reality". I've always liked songs that have titles that capture the whole song mood, and don't really draw from the lyric. "Blue" was the emotion I was going for with the lyric. "Faded" "Tragic" "Bitter Tears Like Rain". I'll keep working on some titles, but ultimately, I'm never that good with naming stuff.
Phil

MLINYHI said...

Phil,
You could also use something else from that incident-a name or a place etc.

Keeper said...

http://www.4shared.com/file/82486924/a18043f6/Forsake_Reality.html<--Click this

Good job on the vocals Sean! This is at your very upper range limit. There are some high notes that you kinda struggle with, but it's my opinion it is in your range. I suggest either punchins, or a total resing, after warming up. Maybe even do several takes and we can use the best parts.

You have a good voice. This is within your range, but you probably need to warm up and practice a little. Just a few spots, where it feels rough.

The trick is to not change any settings in between takes so they all have the same tone etc, and then they are interchangable and the best parts can be used.

I will do another mix with fresh ears.

Keeper said...

BTW that mix has Ken's real bass in there.

MLINYHI said...

ok, wasnt listening to the mix, listened to a bass separate track that wasn't

MLINYHI said...

Fred,

I have a tendency to sing at the upper end. I still have Zeppelin ringing in my head and that is what I hear when i am writing-cant sing it but I hear it.
I really dont do any exercises and dont think I warmed up for it so may be able to do a little better.
I plan on going to a voice doctor soon to see if everthing is good and then I may try doing some exercises to see if it improves at all.
If u have any tips, Im all ears.

Keeper said...

I can make suggestions Sean. One would be to do several takes, and save them all. It might actually take you a few takes to warm up.

Hot tea with lemon, cold water, a shot of tequilla just before the takes might help.

Really the more you sing the easier it gets. During this track I hear you hit the note with no problem, and then later a little struggle. So warming up might do it, and these throat drinks I mentioned. Also some of the better throat lossenges might let you go there consistently.

If you sung this on stage and needed to be consistent I'd say drop the key down, but for recording I think it's ok, because you can do several takes and use the best.

Why a throat doctor? You having problems like I am?

This is not out of your range if you practice it.

Keeper said...

You are playing some of the bass part on your guitar too Sean. Might want to see how it sounds to let the bass do those in between parts that you are copping on your lower strings. I can do some editing if you'd like to hear it.

MLINYHI said...

Hey Fred, Not sure on the editing out of the guitar bass strings. I could give it a listen. I think without it the guitar is kinda boring but if it sounds better....

Ps. I was hoping some of the imperfections in the vocals could be lost in the mix, but i guess thats cheating:)

I will have to give em another go. i actually have a few days off-unexpected -so can try out. I would tonight but drank some beer last night so not sure if itll work very well

Keeper said...

Another thing that might help is breathing. I suspect that where it gets weaker, you might be running out of breath. So if you take care to get a good lung full of air on the passages that are up there and lenghty you may well maintain through it. You have the pipes, and you have the range. I don't hear you cracking really. Maybe running out of steam.

I remember in choir they used to have us sing with a candle in front of our faces, and we were to try not to make the candle flicker while singing. To sing from the diaphram, and not blow out a lot of air while singing.

So you could try this too. It's intuative and you have to be comfortable. Try getting large breaths of air and proactice singing with a candle in front of you. Projecting from the diaphram with very little or controlled air expendature. It's intuative. SOmething for you to work on.

You have a good voice, and it sounds like you are already singing from the diaphram, so this may be something easy for you to do.

Keeper said...

It's a fact of studio life to do several takes Sean. Don't sweat it. Take your time. What you did is very close, in places and right on in others. That's why I know you can do it. Even if you sing it in sections we can punch it in.

As for the lower strings, listen to it. The bass and lower strings are doing very similar things. Occupying the same place in the mix. I thought you had a bass in there when I fist listened.

I can do non-destructive editing. In other words a version of it will be saved like it is in case you don't like the edit.

I'm only talking about the lower strings being edited. Not the whole guitar part.

And it's not a problem for me if you want to keep it in. It's just something I noticed. Ken what do you think about the lower strings on his guitar against your bass? The part in between he's doing?

Keeper said...

As I was listening to this last mix, something occured to me that I think might do it for you Sean. I am going to use a keyboard to demonstrate. Might be tomorrow before I can show you this, so chill awhile and we'll get this.

Bottom line is your decisions stand so don't sweat it. It's comming together.

Inngr8 said...

If no one has a problem with one of these titles, I'd be more than happy to have either selected. I'm leaning toward "Forsake Reality" or "Phoenix Blue". The former ties it solidly to the lyrics. The latter might be too esoteric, but it has a good ring to it - and the original title doesn't get completely lost. I could flip a coin, or we could go with consensus, or I can spend some time tonight making a long list.
Phil

Keeper said...

I like "Forsake Reality".

MLINYHI said...

"Forsake reality" Works for me.

Phoenix blue works too. Kinda mysterious.

Inngr8 said...

Way to commit Sean, LOL! I'm going to vote for "Forsake Reality" as well. Not sure how many more are voting, but if it was just the four of us involved, we already have a consensus.
Phil

F-Jam Alert said...

Ok the title of this roject will change to "Forsake Reality". It'll be changed on the listing with the next day.

Cool.

Keeper said...

Sean-

The more I listen to this, the more I think you have a good arrangement as it is. The only thing I can think of that might improve it would be more length for a lead?

After the bridge it goes right back into a verse, which actually works, but it might be a logical place to insert more time (maybe 8 bars) for a longer guitar lead?

If you haven't changed any of your setup, we could maybe identify, and try just the specific phrases that are at the very top of the range. Just doing small sections and putting them in instead of doing the whole thing might be the answer. The chorus seems to be the main area.

I'm going to turn on my keyboard and try to demo an idea that might help too. I'll post it soon.

MLINYHI said...

Nice Job on this everyone. It goes together well. I had not heard it all together and wasnt sure how it would blend but it works. I will try to re-do the vocals tonight.

Keeper said...

Sean here's a demo of another suggestion you could try if the drinks, breathing, multiple takes, and rehearsal/warmup doesn't do the trick for you.


In the chorus the lyrics read as follows:

"Foresake reality, choking on the years I live in vain" and you sing it like this:

Current melody<---Click this

Here is a suggestion that has you avoiding the highest notes of your current melody.


Suggested melody<---Click this

In the suggested melody you maintain the note and don't go up on the first syllable of the word "reality". Also you wouldn't jum up on the "I" in the phrase "I live in vain".

You are close enough in your first mix that I think you can do it without this change, but it's something to consider.

MLINYHI said...

Fred,

I hear that you had to change the pitch on "she" and "dont wanna go on"?

I will redo that cause I can hear it.

The vocal effects sound good. What do you use?

Keeper said...

I used a echo plugin. I think it was a soundforge(sony) plugin.

There is a lot that can be done to help this as we get into that aspect.

Like for instance the drums are still dry, but we will address all of this in good time.

I was thinking about the bass thing too. Let me clarify on this:

If you listen to the last mix, what you play on the lower strings in between sounds like an extention of what ken is playing on the bass. It's like you are adding to his bass track with the lower strings of your guitar. I actually agree that your phrase in there helps, so what I was thinking is to have that played by Ken on the bass. That would keep the tone of the bass consistent and keep the phrase in there.

If you listen to it your phrase keeps going after Ken stops his playing. It sounds like the bass keeps going but the tone changes.

So I'm thinking I'll edit out the guitar doing it, and ask Ken to play those parts on the bass. That should keep both of us happy on this? I understand why you have it in there, but technically you are doing a bass part with your guitar.

I agree it helps the feel to have it in there, but it does conflict with the bass IMHO.

Keeper said...

Yes I did adjust the pitch in a place or two. It sounds artificial in at least one place because I had to move it so far. A resing would fix that.

If you like the general pitch edits, just rehearse against the last mix for melody pitch.

If you don't agree with the changes (that's fine with me), then go ahead and sing what you hear. I was actually demoing the changes anyhow.

Keeper said...

The place that my edit really sticks out is in the phrase "don't want to go on". I made the "don't want to" quite a bit sharp to what you sung.

If you listen to your vocal separate and then my edits it'll be clear what I did.

I could make a separate of my edits if you really want to compare, but I suggest you don't get into that. If you like my edits in general, just rehearse against the last mix. You could get bogged down with comparrison. Of course if you want to be clear on my edits I can do comparisons for you.

And then if you don't agree with the edits, then discard them, and rehearse to your own ear.

I'm here to help and I can demo what I do to show exactly but in the end I will respect your decisions Sean. That is our rule. Like it or not we have to respect the author's decisions.

If you like the pitch in general, just rehearse against it andforget the rest.

MLINYHI said...

I am going to try and redo vocals tonight. I will see how I am feeling vocally. Hopefully I will be able to hit everything. If not I may try the alternate notes you suggested.

As far as a lead...There really isnt much room. The only places I can hink of are in the very beginning-almost an intro or a quick lead after the first chorus.
What do you think?

Keeper said...

I'm going to try inserting some space after the bridge for a lead, before that verse comes back in.

We'll examine that after I do it. It'll be a non-destructive edit (meaning we can use the current arrangement if it doesn't fly).

Same with the bass suggestion. It'll be non-destructive and the current arrangement will be kept too and not overwritten.

MLINYHI said...

Tried to re-record vocals but couldnt get it tonight. Voice was a little scratchy. Might have got it if I kept going but got interrupted a few times and annoyed. Will try again tomm.

kenny_b said...

This may be a case of the key being too high for your natural vocal range. What if we tried dropping the key from A down to G (a whole step)

kenny_b said...

Or is the key Dm....not sure what the key is...the chorus seems to be Dm.....the verse A....anyhow MLI seems to be straining to hit the notes.

I know the feeling when I've written a song on guitar without considering the melody and my vocal range....then my voice will tighten up to try to sing beyond its range.

Keeper said...

Yeah wait for a good time Sean. I hear ya on that point. No hurry.


:-)

Keeper said...

---------------
kenny_b said...

This may be a case of the key being too high for your natural vocal range. What if we tried dropping the key from A down to G (a whole step)
---------------

You gotta admit he's very close on this. I bet he can do it. If it were to be done onstage I sure would say drop it down. For consistant performance.

MLINYHI said...

New vocal up. Probably the best im gonna get. Gonna try and do some exercises on a regular basis...we will see how that works out.

The bridge vocal I left the same as the rest. On the first recording I had a slight flange and moved to the right channel. I wanted to have it sound different than the rest of the song. If you want to move it again that way feel free.

I also recorded about 3 times so if there is something u hear on this one (that I didnt) maybe its better on another take.

MLINYHI said...

Kenny,

It is too high. I always end up doing that for some reason. I think I like my voice better in a higher range but then always end up with some notes that are too high. I dont (didnt) do any exercises and dont sing very much.
Most of the time when I write I end up with alot of open string chords or riffs that just dont sound the same when the key is changed and they have to be barre'd.
Anyway, Ill try to take it into consideration next time...

Keeper said...

Experience is the best teacher eh Sean?

As far as recording vocals with effects on them, it's not a good idea. Any reputable producer will tell you it's better to record dry and add effects after the fact. That is mainly bcause if you get it wrong you end up having to re-record a part. Adding it after the fact negates that problem. If you add it after and don't like it you can just try another plugin and not have to redo the recording.

The exception to this rule would be guitar, where a player has to add the FX in order to get the feel to begin with.

F-Jam Alert said...

Sean-

I'm going to go ahead and try out the mp3 you posted, but there is a good chance that it'll end up in the final mix. Final mix tracks should be sent up as wav or some lossless format such as ape, or flac. It preserves a better resolution for the final mix. mp3 reduces the resolution unless you use an extremely high res, in which case you'd probably be better off using wav anyhow. mp3 is used for inprocess interactions, meaning auditions etc. The final phaze should be higher res.

Point being, these vocals could end up in the final mix.

MLINYHI said...

Fred,

Do you need wav files on the guitar also?

Keeper said...

Anything that is on the final mix should be wav format. I am going onto AIM now. I'd like to talk to you there.

kenny_b said...

A lot of bands tune down 1/2 or whole step for that reason. Especially for live performance.

MLINYHI said...

Kenny,
The guitar is tuned down a step:) Capo would be the next choice but I think that changes the sound too...

MLINYHI said...

Dry vocal .ape file and guitar .ape file uploaded to separates file.

Keeper said...

I feel much better about this vocal take Sean. I knew you could do it. While it's obvious we have identified the very upper limit of you vocal range, I feel pretty confident that this can be used in the final.

I only had time to drop your track in and have a quick listen, and I gotta pop back out again, and tend to RL. I should be able to jump back in here later today and work on this and post a mix.

Excellent work!

Oh BTW: I've not forgotten about your idea for a phlange on the bridge vocal to set it apart. I'll see if I can do that today. I do have the arrangement priorities (adding space for a lead right after "I'm going insane").

It wouldn't be smart to try this key to sing this onstage, but I fell like you pulled it off in the studio.

Watch this space...

Keeper said...

I have some more work to do yet. I believe you did the chorus at least one time where it didn't feel strained, so I plan to get that and use it throughout.

I did a quick phlange on the bridge. Didn't get to add time after the "insane", yet. I'm doing a juggling act for a littlewhile. Bear with me:

New Vocal Roughed Mix<---Click this

MLINYHI said...

Fred,
Obviously, take yer time. Roughed mix sounds good. Thanks.

kenny_b said...

Much better recent vocal take. The pitch sounds good.

The mix seems to be lacking reverb. It is very dry.

Keeper said...

Yes we can add verb in places. I've been working on structure and or pitch corrections mainly. And arrangement. We've been discussing some arrangement changes, on the overall song arrangement, as well as changes in the bass. I think I'll take care of those first before I get serious about FX. I added some echo (only), just to help interim mixes. I mentioned to Sean earlier that the drums are dry. It's usually good to keep interim mixes dry while you work on arrangement and or structure. I have ideas for other things too on this (different keys, and leads), but it takes time.

I've been involved with helping other members get straight with their projects, and sending out mass invites etc. Might be a day or so before I get to work on this anymore. If someone needs separates from me so they can do some work on it, let me know.

I'm planning to watch the game today with my sons so probably will be very limited studio time for me. We'll see how it goes. We can DVR the game but they have a family party of sorts planned so I'll be in on that. I usually keep my laptop on in the living room, and google pops e-mail notifications up on the desktop so I see posts right away, even if I'm watching TV in there etc. This new laptop I got for xmas has been a godsend for wifi monitoring of the site, even when not in the studio...

So yeah I'm agreeing with ya Ken, and have been aware of it in discussions here, but it's too early for such critiques... TA...

Keeper said...

Added some space for a good length lead. Put some verb in and a better flange.


Forsake_Reality_Mix_03_03_09.mp3<--Click this

Keeper said...

In this mix:

-removed verb from click (for easier alignment)
-tweaked bass
-worked on vocal echo timing(flanged bridge)
-did some work on EQ and treatment.

So I guess we''l use this mix to send out a mass invite for lead guitars, lead keys, and backing vocals (chorus etc.)

I still hear a few tweaks I want to do yet, but they are small.


Forsake_Reality_Mix_03_04_09.mp3<---Click this

LVGD08 said...

Nice! Good job on this guys...it sounds pretty good over here.

F-Jam Alert said...

Hi Jerry. Sean is out of the picture for a week. He sent me a PM yesterday, saying he would not have access to a computer from Wed. (today) to Wed. It'd be cool to have him come back to some auditions, so if you hear something, throw it up here man!

BTW: Glad to hear ya got your computer problems out of the way. A clean wipe of the OS is a good idea every so often. I did one myself maybe just under two months ago.

Inngr8 said...

This is the validated version of the lyrics - Phil

Forsake Reality
V1
Our love was a work of art
‘til tragedy came
Never mend this broken heart
Dying in shame
All of the emptiness
Will never be filled
C1
Embrace insanity,
Drowning in my tears, like falling rain
Forsake reality,
Choking down the years I’ll live in vain
V2 extended
Brought out the best in me
And then she was gone
Erase the rest of me
Don’t want to go on
Lost my identity
When she left this world

Memories condemning me
I’m at fault and it’s killing me

She was my everything
My body and soul

Or maybe it was just a dream
On my knees I start to scream

Bridge
All that’s left are memories… that won’t fade away
Our love was a symphony… that no longer plays
Won’t you please come back for me… I’m going insane

V3
And I pray she’s forgiven me
Can’t believe she’s not here with me
C2 extended
Embrace insanity,
Wander thru my mind, you’re just the same
Forsake reality,
Angry at the Heavens, scream your name
Embrace insanity,
Looking at the world just out of reach
Forsake reality,
Couldn’t learn the lessons life would teach
Embrace insanity,
Drowning in my tears, like falling rain
Forsake reality,
Choking down the years I’ll live in vain
Embrace insanity,
Drowning in my tears, like falling rain
Forsake reality,
Choking down the years I’ll live in vain
P. Armstrong 1/20/09 - validated 2/4/09

Inngr8 said...

Any way you can delete the last "validated" version? Looks like I deleted 2 extra lines. Please consider this post to be the "validated and correct" version. Phil

V1
Our love was a work of art
‘til tragedy came
Never mend this broken heart
Dying in shame
All of the emptiness
Will never be filled
C1
Embrace insanity,
Drowning in my tears, like falling rain
Forsake reality,
Choking down the years I’ll live in vain
V2 extended
Brought out the best in me
And then she was gone
Erase the rest of me
Don’t want to go on
Lost my identity
When she left this world

Memories condemning me
I’m at fault and it’s killing me

She was my everything
My body and soul

Or maybe it was just a dream
On my knees I start to scream

Bridge
All that’s left are memories… that won’t fade away
Our love was a symphony… that no longer plays
Won’t you please come back for me… I’m going insane

V3
She paid the final price
I’m missing her so
And I pray she’s forgiven me
Can’t believe she’s not here with me
C2 extended
Embrace insanity,
Wander thru my mind, you’re just the same
Forsake reality,
Angry at the Heavens, scream your name
Embrace insanity,
Looking at the world just out of reach
Forsake reality,
Couldn’t learn the lessons life would teach
Embrace insanity,
Drowning in my tears, like falling rain
Forsake reality,
Choking down the years I’ll live in vain
Drowning in my tears, like falling rain
Forsake reality,
Choking down the years I’ll live in vain
P. Armstrong 1/20/09

F-Jam Alert said...

Thanks Phil-

They went out with the mass invite to the vocalist's group(for backing vocals).

It's always a good idea to post a document in the files with the updated lyrics, after you and the singer hammer them all out. It save people from having to search back through your discussions and try to find the most recent.

When you and singers are hammering out lyrics, most other folks are probably not watching that closely because it's changing. They are more inclined to look at the final product, and posting such a document makes it easier to find. A link to the lyrics can be added to the status page.

I have video tutorials on how to edit that if you want to see them. Then you can post links to these documents in the status window in plain sight, at will.

F-Jam Alert said...

nce the lyrics are final, you can paste them right into the status window too for all to see. Just paste them into the bottom of the status window. I can give you access so you can do this when you are ready.

Keeper said...

I tried a percussive organ lead. The guitar would take over where it leaves off of dynamics. I also added some more organ just before the chorus for dynamic buildup. I probably need to nudge up the lead vocal now. Some simple tamborine, and lead guitar, some backing vocals on the chorus, is about all this mix can sustain now.

http://www.4shared.com/file/84625603/7093d094/Forsake_Reality_Mix_Fred_Keyboard_Lead1.html<---Click this

Keeper said...

I did a little at the intro, but this idea is mainly for lead guitar in the middle. An attempt to continue the dynamic buildup that the keyboard lead sets up. I will work on peppering some more leads in just in case this idea flies.

http://www.4shared.com/file/85565895/97cf3c38/Forsake_Reality_Mix_Fred_Kbd_and_Guitar_Lead1.mp3

Inngr8 said...

I think it's a great addition - everything that you ad makes the song that much better. Can't wait to hear it with the lead added all the way thru. If my vote counts, I'm all for you continuing the lead in the middle as well. Phil

Keeper said...

Did a little more work with leads. I gotta fix the punchin points some of the older tracks are showing in this mix where I don't want them to. I am thinking to go to power chords on the verse, and do leads under the chords. Similar to this take except power chords under the verse instead of the leads. Gotta listen with fresh ears. Leaning towards leass busy under the verse. Also might try some more keyboard leads. Thinking to save the busy leads for the outro.


Forsake_Reality_More_Leads.mp3<-- click this

Keeper said...

Oh yeah you'll notice I've polished the two leads I demoed yesterday. In the intro and in the middle.

Probably should wait on this and see what Sean says about this. He might not like any of it. LOL I know he wants to do some leads.

Keeper said...

Here is a power chord mix, with a rythm idea. I'm not totally sold on this approach, but it is probably a mix thing. Maybe too loud on the power chords. One little section I need to redo too cuz of a pickup glitch on the guitar. I want to put more leads in too during the F to E bridge, and on the end to change it up. This is roughed out as an idea. Will be listening and refininf with fresh ears.

Forsake_Reality_More_Leads_2.mp3<--click this

Keeper said...

Certain spots I like the power chords. Others I don't. I'm gonna tame those a little.

Keeper said...

I did a combination of replacing, removing, and lowering the power chords in the mix. I'm much happier with this mix. This could be a final for the distorted lead guitar audition.

Forsake_Reality_Pwr_Chord_Tweak.mp3

The only other thing I'd investigate on this project would be backing vocal harmonies. But since putting the lead guitar in the chorus it may not need it. I do hear some in my head though and it could put the finishing touches on this. That is if Sean likes the leadwork at all. Waiting to hear from him.....

Keeper said...

Final Mix<---click this

MLINYHI said...

Hey Guys,

Was away for a few days but you have been busy, havent you Fred?
It all sounds good! I only listened twice and didnt pick up on anything I didnt like. The leads work so one less thing I have to do:)
I can start thinking about backing vocals-unless someone is on it already.

I will have to listen a bunch more times....

Great job on the production work too.

Keeper said...

Glad you like it Sean. I had some ideas for backing harmonies on the chorus, but since I've added the leads, I am not so sur thr is room for them anymore. It sounds quite full ATM and could be a final mix.

I can demo my ideas but don't be surprised if there is not room now.

And of course if you want to try something go for it.

Thanks...

kenny_b said...

I played the latest mix. I really like the distorted guitar. Just what the song needed.

The organ solo is hot too.

I would like to hear a high resolution file of the mix.

kenny_b said...

I downloaded the file this time instead of playing it. The file is hi-res mp3 I guess.

It sounded like the vocals and guitars were a little harsh in the high frequencies. Can someone else comment on this, my monitoring system is not really calibrated.

kenny_b said...

The clean rhythm guitar I mean, the distorted guitar sounds fine.

Keeper said...

Sean-

You said you thought that your guitar is too low in the mix. That's actually the opposite of what Ken has complained about. He said that guitar sticks out as harsh. I actually disagree with both views. We know mix is subjective, so everyone approaches things differently. But here's something to support what I'm saying. Here's a mix with the lead guitar muted:

http://www.4shared.com/file/87806286/acbe81ac/FSR_Band_mix.html<--- click this

You'll notice you can hear your guitar quite nicely, as a rythm instrument in the mix, just as it should be. Rythm is definitely supposed to be behind the lead parts in the mix. So once you add the lead and give it priority in the mix where it should be, it is behind the leads in the mix in a support role right where it should be. I actually hear your guitar very well in my studio monitors.

Your rythm guitar hits right with the snare most of the time, and is kinda obscured by it, but this has everything to do with the part you played.

If you wanted the 2nd bass part to be treated as a lead and brought out in the mix you should have played it on a separate track so it is not treated as a rythm part and mixed to the back. Rythm parts are support, and should be mixed as such and so in the back ground. I hear your guitar guite well in the mix, and Ken is actually saying he hears it too much and to the point of being harsh.

So you see that we all hear different things. The point here is that rythm parts are always mixed behind leads for priority. That will always be true. Listen to the mix above and tell me your guitar is too low in the mix. It's what is behind the leads in my final mix.

Also I wonder if you weren't listening to an earlier mix. Listen to the one that is attached to the Latest Mix icon in the status window above. I don't agree at all that your guitar is hard to hear.


What part of the vocals get loud as you spoke of in PM? Some dynamics is needed in these mixes. If you compress it too much you remove all of the dynamics. Some changes in the volume is wanted if you ask me. So I'd like to know what part of the vocals requires more compression. What words are you singing where it gets too loud?

I actually don't agree with either of these critiques. This is why I ask.

Keeper said...

Oops, something wrong with that mp3. I'll try that again...

Keeper said...

Ok I fixed that rythm mix. This is a mix of the rythm section and if you ask me your guitar is quite prominant in it:

http://www.4shared.com/file/87809774/9b802ef2/FSR_Band_mix.html<---

But all of this rythm is supposed to be in the background of the mix behind leads, and it is in my final mix. The one attached in the status window.

It's ok if we don't agree on this. Happens all the time. I don't agree with either critique.

Everyone will have an opportunity to do their own mix too.

Keeper said...

Here's the backing vocal idea I've been hearing. I guess there is room for it.If nobody says anything I'll consider this final for this then...

Link<--Click this

Inngr8 said...

I think you've done a great job, and I certainly approve and concur that this song is probably completed. Phil

MLINYHI said...

Fred,

I tried listening to the suggested backing vocals but couldnt really heaer them. Maybe its the headphones/ear buds I tried listening through. Can you post a mix with the backing vocals higher? If you have good monitors and it sounds good to everyone else then the mix is ok with me. One different thing about this one though- I agree that the rythym guitar should be lower than the lead, but in this case the lead is basically through the entire song so I am not sure it applies exactly the same way. Once again though, I am listening through earbuds at the moment so if it sounds good to everyone else it is good for me.

kenny_b said...

I didn't mean the level of the guitar. I thought the level or volume was where it should be. I meant the tone. Seemed to have too many high frequencies. You could try cutting 3-6db around 5khz.

It may just be my monitors and ears are sensitive in that range. I might not notice on an average consumer grade stereo system.

Not a big issue overall.

Keeper said...

I listened to my backing vocal mix with fresh ears and I agree they need to come up Sean. I will do that.

As for the frquencies, I've listened with this in mind and I don't hear what Ken speaks of. Rolling off the highs would mak the guitar harder to hear in the mix, so it's almost like lowering the level to roll of the frequencies. So if you think about it Ken and Sean are on opposing sides on this. I could nudge Sean's guitar rhythm up in th mix but it'd make it even easier for Ken to hear the highs.

This makes it hard to please everyone so I should just go with my own hearing, and I'll soon be posting so that others can mix it to their own likes. It is very common for people to disagree on mix. So by all means, even if we don't agree you should still continue voicing your opinions.

Keeper said...

The female backings are more on top in this mix.

Female backings Mix 2<--Click this

Inngr8 said...

Lost the last comment when I tried to post - fat fingers??? On the Tweak 2 version I didn't hear the backing vocals until the very end of the song, and then just barely, but I thought it was what you intended. But with this version... the female vocals have an ethereal quality, almost as if she is encouraging our guy to give in to his grief and go crazy - an indictment of him having caused her death an now she has gotten deep, deep into his head. IMO it adds a lot to the "feel" and emotion of the song - good job, Phil

Keeper said...

Moose has said he wants to try his hand at some real backing vocals for this. What I auditioned is a demo made by the computer (synthetic-vocaloid).

Moose just consider what I did as a guideline. You can add more if you think the mix will sustain it. It's getting pretty full so it remains to be seen what is too much.

I usually would do this sort of thing myself, and make short work of it, but I'm out of commission on vocals for now and I'm headed back to the specialist. Thanks Moose.


OH BTW: Moose has shown an interest in mixing/mastering this one too so he should get his chance soon enough. As will you all.

MLINYHI said...

ok, lets hear em'

Keeper said...

Low_Harmony

Hi_Harmony

Distorted_Gtr

MLINYHI said...

Hey Fred Listened to the high harmony. I think itll work but have to hear it...I am having a hard time believing that someone named "Moose" is going to be singing that high harmony though:)

No offense Moose but I am guessing you have a deeper voice...

Keeper said...

If he can still sing like h is doing in the harmonies of the songs on his website he should be able to easily. I should let him speak for himself, but like I said he does sing quite high harmonies on his own tunes.

You are singing higher than the high part. If my voice were normal I could sing it with no problem either. It didn't strike me as out of his range, based on what I've heard.

If he can't maybe you can Sean, but let's let him speak for himself... You might be surprised.

Keeper said...

If the parts I came up with will work it's going to need to be mixed right. Should be easier to do with real voices.

MLINYHI said...

T'was only a joke, Fred.

Keeper said...

Oh ok, you should warn me when you are joking. It can be be hard to convey in text. I wasn't kidding. Have a listen to his work:

Moose Click this

MLINYHI said...

Fred,

Somehow you have made me feel like I insulted the guy. That was not my intention at all. I just commented that someone with the name Moose probably has a deep voice. It would be pretty silly calling someone who sounds like Jon Anderson (Yes) Moose. I listened to all of the songs on that link and they are damn good. He has a VERY deep voice but does get up higher especially on "War under the Sun". He happens to have a great voice and I would appreciate anything he would add to this or any other song.
From now on I will use one of those little smiley faces when I am trying to be humorous...

Keeper said...

I didn't think you were insulting him. It just sounded like you didn't have much faith. I knew there waqs a little pun about the name Moose, but I thought you were serious. That's why I had ya go listen.

It can be tricky to get your point across using text. No harm done, and you got to hear him a bit.

There is a lot of talent flying around here.

G1 said...

Well... harumph! Disappear into the studio for an evening and all kinds of debris hits the wind!

BIG SMILEY FACE - WINK - WINK

I didn't see the vocal files up earlier, so I just listened to the mix with the vocaloid a bit, then started rethinking it (uh-oh!). I shut down the Internet machine while I'm recording (too noisy). I've got some harmony tracks together, but it's late and there's some spots I need to retrack for my own satisfaction. Sometime Friday (later on today) I'll post them for Keeper to slip into a mix.

Hopefully you'll like what they do... I'm just he'pin' out.

BTW - you've got to have a sense of humor to keep a nickname like 'Moose' - and it doesn't have aaaaaanything to do with my voice. /;)

Thanks for the kind words and interesting discussion.

M0o53

Keeper said...

Moose-

I still need to get MY keyboard separate up here for ya to complete the set. Will do later today. It's my wife's B-Day today, so I gotta pay some attention to her. Going to supper to celebrate later but I should be able to squeeze in some studio time.

I probably should have edited the lead distortion track to smooth out the punchins and edits, but that stuff is invisible when it's mixed as you heard.

I'll be moving that track into the separates folder so I'll post that new link too when I do.

Ideally I'd like to begin using OMF format project files. Once we get your backings in place I will render one of those for mixers. It's easier than posting separates, and the OMF files are supposed to be compatible with cubase, sonar, and all major DAWs. It's supposed to be a generic standard format, so I want to try using that and maybe make it a standard for the final stages of mix/master if this works out.

Watch this space...

F-Jam Alert said...

Moose-

I guess I will have to send up all new separates since indeed we have changed the arrangement of this song considerably since the first separates were posted.

Once I get your backing vocals and line them up I can do this, and it will take all of the guesswork out of this for your mixing.

Send up your harmony vocals and I will do this and we can be on our way.

They sent up separates of their work (mainly Ken) so we'd have high res representations of his work in the master project. The master project has changed and obviously those separates have changed. I can see that you get all updated seps once we get the backings into my project. It should be easy for me to do once I have your tracks. Don't worry about trying to line up your vocals. I can do this easier than you.

G1 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
G1 said...

Alrighty, then.

I made a mix of the 4 part backing vocals, spliced and diced 'em, adding the intro clicks. It was just over the 100MB upload limit, so I RAR'd them with the Insane Symphony riff (which also has the clicks) for a 22.5MB download.

I kept the processing simple so you can add effects and EQ as you feel necessary for the mix.

Hope they help! Cheers!
Moose

Keeper said...

---------------
QUOTE G1...

Alrighty, then.

I made a mix of the 4 part backing vocals, spliced and diced 'em, adding the intro clicks. It was just over the 100MB upload limit, so I RAR'd them with the Insane Symphony riff (which also has the clicks) for a 22.5MB download.

I kept the processing simple so you can add effects and EQ as you feel necessary for the mix.

Hope they help! Cheers!
Moose

February 20, 2009 3:07 PM
---------------


Thanks Moose-

The videos are great for making things clear huh?

I'll be in the studio soon. Watch this space.... :-)

Keeper said...

Ok here is Moose's backings in MY mix.

Forsake_Reality_Moose_Backing.html<---Click this

Hear me out on this... I purposely used only the backing vocals on the chorus. It is my opinion (at first listen), that this mix is so full now that it doesn't sustain the other parts. To use them we've crossed the line of confusion IMHO. So I've just left the rest out. It is possible I don't know how to mix the rest to make it work. What you hear in the above mix is what I will be posting separates for. You will all be welcome to have at submitting your own versions. I am going to post a mix from my project here with the rest of Moose's work mixed in and see if you agree with me that it's too much. There were specific thoughts I had based on effects I had tried to achieve.

In the bridge where it goes to the E and F, there is an interaction between the voice and the jazzed up keys that Ken played, that I felt the mad orchestra obscured. That is why I purposely stopped the lead guitar there and went to a power chord in the background. So that the interaction between these two is given the spotlight. I kinda felt like the harmonies there fought the phlange effect on the voice that Sean requested. When I tried what he asked for there I liked it right away as a contrast to the verse. So I thought the harmonies fought that.

Very specific reasons I muted those sections Moose. But it is possible I didn't mix them right. So you will have your chance to make those work. Keep in mind I specifically wanted to give the jazzy rhodes/organ of Ken's and the phlanged voice of Sean the spotlight there. So when you mix it you gotta keep this in mind and not obscure them. That's why I don't think the mix can sustain the rest.

The specific harmony parts I asked you for, you covered very nicely, and I put it in each time (less is more thoughts), because it is the title line in there, and reinforces the whole feeling of the song. I don't think it needs to be dropped from any time in the chorus, but I'm open to hearing your ideas in your own mixes. I have very specific thoughts in my mix but I am open to hearing your ideas, and your own mix(es). And too we gotta hear what Sean says about the arrangement(s).

You will be able to do your own presentations for him/us.

I am now about making the new separates. It could take me a few hours because I am going to need to import everything into sonar, and take the time to strip off my effects so everyone can do their own treatments. Great Job Moose!

Keeper said...

I anyone wants the separates that are now in the seps folder, now is the time to get them I will be deleting them for the new ones. If you are getting them and need more time, let me know. I will leave them there until I have the new ones ready to upload, so you have maybe an hour unless you speak up and ask for more time to get them.

Keeper said...

Sean-

I like G1's backings a lot, but I am waiting to hear from you, on this before I add him to the roster for backing vocals. To me he passed the audition with flying colors, but this is still your baby, so please speak up so I can change the status/roster, and announce his addition, and that we are now moving to mix/master mode. I have very strong opinions but you are still at the helm, as it's your property. Please let me know.

Keeper said...

Ok here's a mix containing ALL of Moose's proposed parts. You already know what I thought about this so I won't say any more before you listen:

Forsake_Reality_Moose_All.html<--Click this

G1 said...

Quote Keeper: It is my opinion (at first listen), that this mix is so full now that it doesn't sustain the other parts.

No worries. I hope I have been of some help.

I heard a charm in the original tracks that I would like to try to coax out in an alternative production, unless Sean doesn't want me tampering with what you guys have built. There is no real right or wrong - only what folks like - and the bottom line is that this is his song... so unless he is OK with that, I won't pursue it.

Keeper said...

If your parts were mixed right Moose they'd probably work, so the full effect probably will not be evident until you get your hands on the seps. I'm working on that right now. So hang in there, you'll be able to do it the way you intended.

The person with the vision needs to be at the helm so we're setting ya up now.

Keeper said...

I'd bet my arse he wants to hear what you got to show Moose. I did post a mix with your parts in there, and as I listen more I can see I don't have it mixed right, so you'll get your chance before the end of the day. Probably within a few hours. I want to take my time with the stripping etc, so I don't have to do it all over.

As we all know opinions is the name of the game here, and I could very well change my opinion once I hear YOUR mix. You haven't really been given a chance with this yet. That will soon change. Hang in there man.

G1 said...

No urgency here... and I would like to know that Sean will be OK with my meddling; especially since there are 'pieces-parts' in this mix that would be cut from mine for effect.

I've got another project to finish up tonight (payin' the bills); so it would be tomorrow before I could even get started on this.

And for the record - I can't imagine what I would like to do will be aaany better - just the voice of a slightly different muse.

Cheers!

F-Jam Alert said...

All updated separates are posted here:

http://www.4shared.com/dir/12092408/75888b32/Separates.html<--- Click this


Also this project has been posted on the Mix/Master forum here:

http://fjam.boardsmessage.com/mix-master-f5/forsake-reality-mix-master-phaze-t351.htm#962<---Click this....


Have fun!

Keeper said...

Here is the OMF. Try this in cubas.


Forsake_Reality_OMFpart1

orsake_Reality_OMFpart2

MLINYHI said...

Hello all,

Sorry for the lack of response to all these posts. Slept most of the day and have to work tonight. Just gettin ready so not a whole lot of time right now. I listened to forsake-moose all-as I think this is the latest version? It sounds great to me. I would love to hear what you all are considering to be a (close to) final mix. I have to listen a few more times to have it settle in...

I am going to bring the laptop with me tonight so will have access. Let me know which is the most recent and more complete mix.


Thanks Fred!
Thanks Moose!

MLINYHI said...

Ok, posted this before but it doesn't seem to have gone through. If it shows up twice you know why:)

I have listened a few more times and the backing vocals have grown on me to the point that I think something would be missing without them.

Fred..I cant really hear what you had to cut..which part in particular?

I think that any further mixing of this is above my abilities. Its got a lot of different things going on...

Moose, you can meddle as much as you see fit.


Fred/Moose Thanks for the time spent.

Keeper said...

In my mix I muted all of his parts during the E to F bridge (the phlanged part)that you hear on this mix:

http://www.4shared.com/file/88803409/31c3ea5c/Forsake_Reality_Moose_All.html<--

The orchestra and his harmonies. It may be a matter of mix. I really posted the separates for Moose. He offered to have a go at it remember?

http://www.4shared.com/file/88794343/d1a438de/Forsake_Reality_Moose_Backing.html<-- Notice no orchestra or harmonies under the phlanged part on this mix. It's huge on the above mix. Must have been asleep still when you listened.

We'll see how it sounds on Moose's mix. Could make a difference how it's mixed. I still don't think there is room for it but I could change my mind when I hear his work. He hasn't really been given a chance yet so the ball is in his court.

Keeper said...

I did a little work on the mix, and it's obvious to me now that mixing this right makes all the difference.

I got all of your work to fit the phlanged part (E to F bridge), and sounds really good now. The only thing that still fights to my ear is the last orchestra hit. Everything else works after working the mix. I had to do volume envelops on your vox to make them work for me, which is again part of mixing. I'm liking this now after working the mix and looking forward to hearing YOURS.

G1 said...

Thanks... I have real OCD issues when it comes to final mix and mastering; and I have to walk away to let my ears rest often - so I might not finish this today. But I am very much enjoying working with it.

Either way - this is a really cool tune that speaks to me in both lyrics and music. Nice fit! Great work guys.

F-Jam Alert said...

Moose, please do me a favor and get yourself a SOUNDCLICK account. You can post your songs there as well as your final mixes too and all will be included in the jukebox (finished tracks). There is no reason why we can not include multiple mixes in the jukebox. I've sent a version of MY final which now includes ALL of your work and after working some on the mix it feels good to me. Once you get your final up to soundclick we'll include both players from soundclick on the same page here. We can include ALL final mixes for people to browse through and compare. Anyone wishing to put mixes on the finished jukebox, merely needs to post them to soundclick and then send me a link. No hurry. I'll include them when you get it finished. Whether that is today or next week.

MLINYHI said...

Fred quote:"Must have been asleep still when you listened."
I probably was still asleep but I did hear what you are talking about but that wasn't what I meant. I actually misinterpreted what you had written. I though you were saying that you were going to have to cut out some of my vocals to make it fit and thats why you were waiting on me. I couldn't hear where my vocals had been cut..

Keeper said...

Sure I understand Sean. As we've seen this text thing can be tricky. I've come to like Moose's work much better after I worked on mixing it better. That mix I posted just didn't sit right with me. Here's a better mix that I uploaded to Phil's 4shared.com. If you like it I can send up a wav for you to put on your cd for the car.

I want to spend some time away from this song for awhile and then come back with super fresh ears and try a whole new mix.

Here's what I've done so far:


http://www.4shared.com/file/88977606/54e6bb41/Forsake_Reality.html<-- click this

G1 said...

Miscommunication is so easy when relying upon online text messages - body language, tone and inflection are lost. I'm so glad to see everyone here seems to be open-minded and have a good attitude about it all.

BTW: I think your latest mix sounds brilliant, K!

I did sign up for a Soundclick account... could be up to two days before my music posts (I would assume it won't actually take them that long - but...). I should have my offering ready by then.

F-Jam Alert said...

Anyone try loading the OMF format project file that I posted? They say this format crosses platforms (MAC and logic etc.). Pretty much ANY modern DAW should be able to open this....


Anyone?

Moose said...

Phoo... well they don't work in Adobe Audition or REAPER, unfortunately.

I posted more details (or opinion) in the Tech forum here.

F-Jam Alert said...

For those of you who ar wondering, G1 is now Moose, here there and evreywhere. Looks for Moose on the memberlists or profiles. It's his chosen. So don't look for G1.

F-Jam Alert said...

Damn this sticking keyboard! LOL

F-Jam Alert said...

Ken-

It looks like the rhodes piano track is mixed with the rock organ. Can you please repost the rhodes separate and make sure there is no organ mixed in with it. Thanks...

Keeper said...

Moose has sent up a graphic for this finished track. Have a look! Nice one Moose!

http://fjamfinished.blogspot.com/2009/02/forsake-reality-blues-rock.html<--Click this

Moose said...

I have posted my production mix on Soundclick for this here:

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7370095

Enjoyed working on this song with you guys.
Thanks!

F-Jam Alert said...

Mix/Master discussions are officially open.

Keep it civil folks! Keep the respect.

http://fjam.boardsmessage.com/mix-master-f5/forsake-reality-mix-master-phaze-t351.htm#984<--

Keeper said...

Check this out:

http://fjam.boardsmessage.com/video-f18/forsake-reality-t365.htm#1032

Keeper said...

Sorry should have made the link clickable. I did this today trying to keep my mind off of food.

http://fjam.boardsmessage.com/video-f18/forsake-reality-t365.htm#1032

Notice that every time Moose sings the title in his background the title shows in the background... LOL