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(Alt Rock) Kiss Of The Siren (Bass, leads, and Backing Vocs)

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210 comments:

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F-Jam Alert said...

Project initiated:

http://fjamstudios.blogspot.com/2009/03/alt-rock-rebirth-bass-drums-and-vocals.html<--Click this

We are temporarily using the "New Projects" folder until the owner sets up a project folder on their own 4shared.com account. We will then switch over to it once it's setup. You can post auditions to this folder temporarily. Go for it!

Phil, and AC, I was unsure of whether or not to put Phil on the roster yet, because it wasn't mentioned, and no lyrics were uploaded yet. Please advise....

Also you only asked for bass and drums, but I assumed you'd be auditioning vocals too, so I put that in the title. Let me know if that is not the case...

Keep me posted as to your folder setup on your own account.

Thanks...

ac said...

rebirth has been uploaded to my 4shared account. here's the link: http://www.4shared.com/file/91623263/9a39af2b/rebirth2.html
the lyrics have been written and just waiting for phil to upload them. there's no intro or outro to the song so ideas would be welcome.

Keeper said...

This has a lot of potential Antonio! I am noticing you are a lot tighter on this track than some others I've heard from you. Is this recent? Is it possibly because you bought some new phones and set your monitor up before recording? It's pretty tight.

We could still use the separates though to make custom mixes, and work arrangement. I hope these steroids I'm taking brings back my voice. I'd love to try to sing to this.... It's ripe for vocals...

Nice work man!

ac said...

the headphones have made a hell of a difference!! but i've also been watching and learning :)

F-Jam Alert said...

Ok guys you are good to go for the project page using AC's 4shared.com account now. Thanks for taking care of that AC. You should edit in Phil as lyricist, on the roster A., and maybe paste in his updated lyrics at the bottom of the status page. Once you do that I'll resize the status window so all of his lyrics will be visible. This should be a good one!

ac said...

i'll upload the separates by tonight

F-Jam Alert said...

---------------
Quote ac ...

the headphones have made a hell of a difference!! but i've also been watching and learning :)
---------------

Well don't forget that you are now taking care to setup the levels in your monitor now and maybe ever putting a cowbell click in to help stay locked in if needed. A good drum track is probably all you need, but you gotta set it up so you don't loose it in the mix while recording....

It's showing in your tracks too AC... I probably won't need to tweak your tracks nearly as much now. I tweak my own, and we all need help sometimes, but I'm seeing a marked difference in your performances! Well done man!

F-Jam Alert said...

Sorry for the double post folks... I've been experimenting with gmail to see if it will forward messages to syndication (googlegroup). I just deleted the filter I had setup so you should not see any more double posts.

Inngr8 said...

Here are the lyrics - Not sure how to add myself as the lyricist tho. Phil

Rebirth (I’m proposing using First Kiss for the title)
V1
Prettiest girl that I had ever seen
Love at first sight, when she walked thru the door
Felt like I was living a fantasy
Match made in Heaven, who could ask for more
I never thought I would fall in love
Never had a choice, and I couldn’t find my voice
I never thought I would fall in love…
But the damage was done
Refrain
I should have lied
Could have tried
She didn’t see
The danger in me
C1
The first kiss of the needle took her
I called her name, but never got an answer
The first kiss of the needle took her
I pray to God she found what she was after
All the love I tried to give her
Couldn’t compete with the Siren Song
The first kiss of the needle took her
Sweet Innocence was gone
V2
Another world waiting thru the looking glass
She built a house with her valentines cards
We would still be living there today
If I hadn’t introduced her to the storm
I never thought I would fall in love
Never had a choice, and I couldn’t find my voice
I never thought I would fall in love…
But the damage was done
Refrain
I should have lied
Could have tried
She didn’t see
The danger in me
C1
The first kiss of the needle took her
I called her name, but never got an answer
The first kiss of the needle took her
I pray to God she found what she was after
All the love I tried to give her
Couldn’t compete with the Siren Song
The first kiss of the needle took her
Sweet Innocence was gone
© Phil Armstrong 3/3/09

Inngr8 said...

Sorry about all those direct replies, Fred - I was answering all my emails and got into the zone, forgot you were the only one seeing how I was responding. Phil

F-Jam Alert said...

Phil-

If you look at the bottom of the "status window" on this page you'll see a link called "Edit help". That's a video which explains how to edit the project status and update the roster, and or add your lyrics.

Remember that status editor has a history, so you can't hurt it. Meaning if you do something wrong we can revert to earlier versions before you edited, like as if you never did, so it's easy to backtrack. It's the same video that AC watched to learn how to update project status.

It's what I was talking to you about a few weeks ago. If you put your lyrics in the status window it makes it easy for people to find, and read, as opposed to searching through the discussions at the bottom of the project page. You already have permission to try editing. That video that is linked at the bottom of the status window should show you everything you need to know. Can't hurt it and it's how you learn. Go for it.

ac said...

uploaded separates

F-Jam Alert said...

Thanks Antonio...

Here's the link to the seps for those interested:
http://www.4shared.com/dir/13317634/73da825d/rebirth.html<--Click this

Notice:
Phil has been added to the roster and posted his lyrics to the status window to make it easier to find them...

F-Jam Alert said...

Did you activate that seps folder to make it public A?

ac said...

oops, i forgot!! it's activated now

F-Jam Alert said...

Ok that's why my link didn't work... LOL ok we'll try this again...

http://www.4shared.com/dir/13339788/24559d9/separates.html<-- Click this

Keeper said...

Antonio-

I noticed a huge improvement in the way your separates line up in my DAW here now too. It seems you've gone to actually rendering them from your DAW as opposed to what you did earlier. Huge difference in how much work this takes for me to line it up! It's basically lining itself up now... Good change on that routine. :-)

I wanted to talk to you about accent on this project. Specifically with regards to the way the bass guitar and distorted guitar are interacting.

As a drummer I usually tune in on the bass guitar first, and try to punctuate the bassline with my kick. So I'm letting the bassline guide me as far as drum pattern. The bass is setting the accent in this song. You are doing a downbeat in the bass pattern that I'm following with the kick. It goes along fine IMHO, until the distorted guitar comes in. Then it seems to fight the downbeat you setup with the bass. The distorted guitar seems to ignore the downbeat accent of the bass. To my ear it sounds much better if this distorted guitar locks in on the downbeat as well. Much tighter.

So I did a little edit on your distorted guitar track to make it follow the bass and drums (specifically the accent of the bass). To me this sounds much better overall as a band, but I wanted to check this change with you before proceeding. Below you hear my edit. I made the first part of your distorted pattern do the downbeat accent with the bass and drums, and then later in the patter I let you go back to the straight accent. It dounds better, this way to me, and I'm considering having the later part do the downbeat too. I can demonstrate the difference between the accents if you want to compare, but here is an excerpt of my edit. I'll wait for your feedback before I proceed:

http://www.4shared.com/file/91926586/b7172248/rebirth_accent_test.html<--Click this

Keeper said...

I'm picking up a problem on the bass too. On the downbeat accent. The first time you hit that accent on the bass, it's fine, but the second time you hit it, it's like you stop fretting it right and it's discordant or something. You seem to do this every time too, so I'm just saying to be more deliberate with your fretting when you do basslines. I used to think you had intonation problems with your bass, but if you can hit it once and it sounds good, the second hit should sound good too. It sounds like you let off on the fret a little and it shows up against the guitar chord. Gotta hang onto that fret so the intonation is consistent. I can fix this with an edit. Just wanted to point this out. Listen to the downbeat accent on the bass. It's like the 2nd time you do it, it's a little off. It's the same note as the first time you hit the downbeat, but not held as well. No biggie. I can fix 'er. Just calling attention to how you fret the bass. I hear this a lot in your basslines. Gotta be more deliberate in your fretting.

:-)

There's no reason to redo this. I can fix it and we have auditions comming too.

Keeper said...

I've been listening some more, and I think I know what I'm hearing on the bass. The 2nd time on the downbeat you are doing a little bass riff there, and it sounded like mis-fretting. I have an idea for this that might help define it. What I'm thinking is the guitar should be doing that with it, instead of the bass alone, to help define that riff. SOmetimes it takes a little listening to understand. At least I think I know what you are doing on the bass there. I want to try something to see if it helps define that phrase.

ac said...

this is one of the reasons i find fjam so helpful. my normal work method is to start with a guitar riff and then choosing an apropriate drum line for it. all the rest gets developped from that. there will be mistakes you'll find and ideas that you'll have that I wouldn't even think.
my bass work isn't all that great. i'm working on it and slowly improving. but still need the help of a bass player as it still isn't a natural thing.

Keeper said...

Well most of what I'm saying is intuition, and being a drummer I tend to work to basslines. You'll hear bassists saying they work to the drums quite often as well. But here is the thing. I've been working the whole track around the bassline, and the accents it's doing. It is possible that we need to work the bassline to the guitar, instead of the guitar to the bassline. In other words, change the accents of the bassline to fit the guitar, rather than changing the accents of the guitar to fit the bassline. Which ever way we go, there, needs to be a reconciliation between them where accent is concerned. It could go either way, but as a drummer I tend to work to the bassline rather than the other way around. That would be your decision. For me what I have begun makes more sense and would be the easiest thing to accomplish. Let me ask you this Antonio. Do you hear what I've been talking about with the downbeat accent on the bass? I can do a before and after thing to make it more clear if you are not following me on this. Have you followed me on what I've been saying so far?

If we worked the bass to follow the guitar, it would mean almost totally reworking the bassline, but that is doable too. It depends on what you had in mind for this which way we go with it.

As a drummer it's my job to home in on the bassline, but there is the matter of interpretation too. I could actually be mis-interpreting what you intended. That is why I am saying I'm approaching this from an intuative approach. To me it needs to follow the bassline's accents, but only you can say what is right to what you intended. Has what I've said to you so far make sense?

Keeper said...

As far as the mis- fretting is concerned, I am now thinking I was wrong about that, and all that is required is to have the guitar follow the bass on that one little riff to make it more defined.

If it is hard to visualize what I am saying by reading text, I believe I can demonstrate with a mix. I can show you what I mean rather than trying to explain it with text.

Keeper said...

If the bassline was done after and was supposed to fit the guitar, I don't think I would have used those accents on the bass. You do a downbeat on the bass that doesn't really suit the straight beat (at least to my ear). I mean listen to your starter track, and then listen to my track. You'll hear that my kick drum follows your bassline much closer, and punctuates it. Depends on whether or not you think this is what it calls for. If you like what I'd done with it then I'll proceed. We could go back to the straight drums you used at first and make the bass be more straight if that's what YOU want to hear. The downbeat accent you used on the bass, tends to be more latin pop than rock for feel, I think... This is a matter of interpretation.

Maybe what is called for is to let me continue what I'm doing and you can let me know if it's departing too much from ROCK, if that's what you had in mind to begin with.

Keeper said...

What I'm saying is what you have setup with your starter track is not wrong, A. It depends on which way you want the song pulled. It could be that I'm pulling it in the wrong direction by the literal punctuation with the kick.

And I think even your direction needs that little guitar riff to follow the bass to define it. This is all intuition. The bottom line is what direction you'd prefer to see it pulled in. Or maybe develop both and you can decide after which way suits you better. You have that option too. You don't have to decide right now. Unless you are sure... What direction you prefer. Your straight drums don't punctuate it nearly as much but it sounds pretty good done that way too.

ac said...

the beginning of this track was composed on an acoustic guitar and was rhytmed almost as a bossanova piece. the latin influence has been there from the start. it has changed dramatically from then, though. i can see what you are saying as to the drums following the bass line and the conflicting beats, and what you have done sounds good to my ears. I would like to have a fusion of styles in the song and still keep the latin feel to it and possibly create a bossarock style:)

Keeper said...

Ok let's do it this way then A. I'll continue with what I'm doing both acknowledging that there are different ways to interpret any progression. You just let me know if you don't like where it has gone, or is going. I think your distorted guitar will keep it grounded in the rock. I'm going to continue using the bassline as my workup then.

Really the bottom line is what YOU like. Your straight drums do indeed work with the bass in your first mix. Less punctuated, but that actually might be what you want. I'll keep going with this then. We can always backtrack if you feel the need.

ac said...

Keeper,

my thoughts exactly, there's always the possibility of backtracking :)

Keeper said...

Ok I changed some of the fingerpicked guitar to syncropate with the bass, and I believe it helped it quite a bit. If you remember I said the guitar needed to follow the bass to fix this, and it looks like I was right about that. I was first thinking the bass was the problem, but after listening a little closer it was the fingerpicking that needed to go up a half step to follow the little bass run in there. They were dischordant to one another. It feels better to me now.

I have it roughed out up to where the lead starts...

http://www.4shared.com/file/92028112/9089c9a2/rebirth-mix2.html<---Click this

Inngr8 said...

I've been listening and running the lyrics thru my head in my pretend professional mental singing voice... and it sounds and flows better if, on the last line of the chorus, shorten it to just "Sweet innocence" instead of "Sweet innocence was gone". Could you all take a look and tell me what you think? I know I'm the lyricist, but I would like your input.
Phil

ac said...

keeper,

it's sounding good, there's no change to what i wanted the music to sound like, but you've managed smooth it out and make it flow better. i've heard it through a couple of times and am quite happy with what you've done. the drum riffs fit the bill and are really quite good. really like the crescendo into the chorus. there's something about their sound that i can't really pinpoint (maybe they're too prominent?). keep going mate, let's get a full mix so we can get some auditions.

Phil,
i had a thought that we could change the first chorus to sweet innocence only and the second one keep as it is, making a final statement (sweet innocence is gone). what do you think?

Keeper said...

Are you opn to haring some diffrent leads auditioned?

ac said...

yes, i'm not a particularly good lead guitarrist even though i'm well intentioned. i do a better job at composing. so if ideas turn u for a better lead i'm happy to consider them.

Keeper said...

Good attitude A. I have some ideas... I need to workup the chords/key it's using...

Keeper said...

Full length mix:

http://www.4shared.com/file/92182552/1dbd8f1a/rebirth-mix3.html<---Click this

ac said...

excellent sound mate. i'm really happy with that. the drums are not overpowering and it really works rhytmically. thanks for that!!

F-Jam Alert said...

Adding keeper to the roster for drums, and we'll post the bassless mix, and status update notification.

:-)

Inngr8 said...

Fred,
Good idea regarding the lyrics change. Just got a chance to listen to the latest version, this is really sounding good. Can't wait to hear it with the vocals... are auditions opened yet?
Phil

Keeper said...

---------------
QUOTE: Inngr8...

"Fred,
Good idea regarding the lyrics change. Just got a chance to listen to the latest version, this is really sounding good. Can't wait to hear it with the vocals... are auditions opened yet?
Phil"
---------------

That was ac's lyric suggestion, not mine.

Yes we posted a status update yesterday opening auditions for bass, leads, and vocals. You didn't get the update notification?

Keeper said...

I did a bit of experimenting with some lead guitar. Trying out different FX etc. BB King style...

http://www.4shared.com/file/92378264/7a99b9d7/rebirth-mix4_keeper_lead1.html<---Click this

MLINYHI said...

I like the guitar progression on this...its got a haunting quality. Wouldn't mind trying to sing it. Will prob get a chance in a day or 2 (hopefully). I know things move pretty fast here so it may be too late by then but will give it a shot if not.

MLINYHI said...

I tried fooling around with some vocals on this but wasn't thrilled with the way it was coming out -both vocally and technically.
Im not sure I am cut out for this one so I think I am gonna stop and listen to others interpretations. Do like the mood of it though..

ac said...

sorry to have been away for such a long time but i'm back posting again (real life can be a bitch sometimes).
would love to hear your take on this MLI... loved your politics and greed tune.

keeper,
as to your lead guitar i'm not too sure, as i'm not about mine either. i think i need to hear some vocals on this before i can decide on what to do with the lead.

MLINYHI said...

AC,

Uploaded the lil bit I recorded the other day before I got frustrated and stopped. It actually sounds a little better to me today but maybe I just got used to it-as usual.

It sounds like you guys had some melody in your heads because you were talking of changing lyrics to make it fit better. I am sure what you were thinking must have been different but let me know if you like and ill try and follow up on it,. Wont have a chance for a few days as working.
I think the chorus needs to have a stronger melody.

ac said...

MLI,
where did you upload it to? i'd love to have a listen to it.

F-Jam Alert said...

Yeah I don't see it either AC.

MLINYHI said...

I uploaded top my 4shared. Where was I sposed to upload it to?

F-Jam Alert said...

Th project has an uploader (for the project files) right on the project page, as do all of the projects.

If you upload to someplace else, at least give a link Sean.

MLINYHI said...

Fred, just uploaded to project folder. Was getting ready for work so didnt have much time to look at things.

Inngr8 said...

Sean,
I don't sing at all, so I'm the last person to critique anyone, but I'm not seeing any problem here. You voice works really well with the material. and it has that quality that I believe makes it a good fit. I can see where you are just messing around a bit and looking for the best perspective to take on it, but I would encourage you to stick with it for a bit - I'm hearing great possibilities in what you have down already.
Phil

MLINYHI said...

Will give it another shot in a few days. This would also work very well with the sound that Moose has on the "Liberation of Desire" song/video...

Moose said...

Mmmmnnn... nah.

I LIKE where you're going with this, Sean. Get comfortable with it and juice it up. I think it's got real potential. My voice would be too thick for AC's guitar arrangement - your voice will cut through for this like mine could not.

I'm working on another project right now, but I should have a bass audition for this by the weekend. I may even offer up a little competition for the lead guitar - Keeper, you have inspired me!

...........and yes, even when I'm not commenting - I'm always lurking. LOL

Mooslurk

Inngr8 said...

Moose,
After Sean posted his comment, I went looking for a link to the "Liberation of Desire" song/video he referenced, couldn't find it. I remember finding a link once to some of your songs, and now it appears absent - any chance you could re-post it?
Phil

Moose said...

Phil - you'll find the tunes I have posted here by going to Search/Search Finished Tracks on Jukebox and using the keyword 'moose'.

The song Sean was referring to is listed/mentioned in the project comments for Politics & Greed. We were talking about videos. It is a song I plan to retrack/rearrange that I had written with Matt Komoroski (lyrics); and he had done a video for it, posting it on a MySpace account he opened for the VRS Band. It's a bit rough, but if you'd like to see it - it can still be found on the old page (which says it was posted in January of 2009 - but it's two years old).

Liberation Of Desire:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=7697334

It was to be the title cut of the album we never finished for reasons I'll leave to posterity.

Cheers! Ahem... Mooooooo

Keeper said...

Like the video Moose. I think there is always going to be licensing issues for footage. That's the general idea I had in mind. Most of the work is in gathering snippets that can be edited in. I told Sean if he does the footwork, and gathers the snippets I'd edit it against the music.

I'm going to add a link to help make hotlinks here in comments, to the bottom of the HELP menu.

I know what you're stepping in, about the band being shortlived.

I have a couple songs finished that I did with an online band. I guess we were lucky to get those done, before the egos just jumped out and the cussing started and it all fell apart. I think people are better off just working together informally. Kinda like we've been doing. It always seems to ruin it to call it a band. Always someone who doesn't want to do the team thing in the middle of the team....

Inngr8 said...

Moose,
Thanx for the link - I did like the song - I'm not sure the video did the song justice tho - just my opinion. Phil

ac said...

MLI,
i quite like the way your vocals fit over the song. As Phil said, it's noticeable where you're struggling to find your vocal direction. specially when you hit the chorus bit. but the voice seems to fit the bill and gives the song an edginess that i like. give it a few more tries and find a melody line that you're comfortable with, there's real potential there.
Moose,
great track mate!

F-Jam Alert said...

Option to help make HOTLINKS in these comments is now at the bottom of HELP menu on the dropdown menu.

Moose said...

Cewl!

And thanks! Yeah, the video was an experiment. I found it humorous, but the quality and footage issues were disappointing. Whatever video compression was used also screwed with the audio.

I have been told that there is royalty-free video footage available for a number of topics; especially war films, but I've not come across a source... and while I am strong in graphic technology - I am equally weak on the video.

w00t! Back to the studio. Moose be rockin' - lol!

MLINYHI said...

Uploaded some vocals.MP3 and APE. Not too much different than the one from the other day. A little better- I hope. Fred, Still out of my range. I cant help myself!! Is there a support group for people who habitually sing out of their range?

Keeper said...

First mix of Sean's vox.

Vox Mix 1<---Click this

Moose said...

Sean - speaking as a spectator (so far - hey, I'm workin' guys!); I think you've got a good feel established for the vocal. As you're probably already doing, the more familiar you get with singing it, the timing and little bits will fall into place... but I believe you're onto something!

Soundin' good, guys. I've been in the studio, but it's been one of those 'walking in quicksand' periods where I keep screwing up the simplest things. It happens. It might be Spring calling - and I got nowhere to go (wink-wink). LOL

ac said...

just listened to the new vocal take and i tend to agree with Moose. I like the way your voice cuts through the melody. if anything your still struggling to find a melody line in the chorus bit that you feel comfortable with. the verses sound really good and the lyrics come to life with your voice. there's an underlying anguish there that really fits. suggestion only, try different things with the chorus, i feel that's where you go out of your vocal comfort zone.

MLINYHI said...

Hey Guy,

I dont think there is too much different I am going to be able to do with the chorus on this. I keep trying to change it up but end up back again. I will try again tonight but dont think its going to change much. I am open to suggestions. Maybe some harmonies?

MLINYHI said...

"Hey Guy" was supposed to be plural. I wanted to edit it but dont see the option. Wasnt it there before?

ac said...

i tried to edit something before and couldn't find it either.

as to the vocals i'm hoping one of the more experienced guys can give you some suggestions. i'm a bit gormless in that area. :(

MLINYHI said...

gormless....had to look that up. You from Britain?

ac said...

i live in the uk, but i'm actually from Portugal.
the Brit influence is starting to get a hold on me apparently!!

MLINYHI said...

Cool. We from all over the place. Where is Phil from? I am NY, Moose is VA, Fred is MI. Makes it a lil difficult to get together and jam:)

Who did the keys on this?

ac said...

i did all of it except for the drums and lyrics. Fred did those and tweaked it slightly to make it more presentable

Inngr8 said...

Phil is living in Northern Nevada currently - actually for the last 14 years. And do you think I need to do some rewording in the chorus? Would that be helpful? I'll have to take a look at it and I'm not sure how much wiggle room we have - but changing some of the wording might make singing it a bit more friendly.
Phil
Sorry about the direct response Fred. Once a stooge...

MLINYHI said...

Phil,
I am not sure if changing the chorus lyrics will help. I am sure a syllable change will alter the melody but not sure for the better. I do suggest if you are thinking of doing that to do it soon though. Things move fast here and it'll soon be past that point.
Let me know if you are going to change and I will hold off on trying to re-record.
I dont think the chorus is bad the way it is but I could be getting subjective.
Maybe its the chord structure of the chorus..(Ill try blaming it on AC ):)

ac said...

yep mate, i got broad shoulders, I can take the blame!! i'll leave the lyrics discussion to the lyricists

Keeper said...

A lower harmony might do the trick. I still sound like the godfather when I speak, so I expect that how I will sound when I sing. Still very hoarse.

I will investigate a different chorus melody though.

MLINYHI said...

Fred,

If you are going to try a harmony should I re-record? I really dont see much different melody coming out. MAYBE just a better recording /vocal/timing (if i am in good voice tonight).

Do you think there is room for a bridge with a tarantella feel?

Inngr8 said...

Sean,
The only reason I was even considering changing the chorus, was if it made it easier for you to get the vocals. I've worked with some people in the past who didn't like certain words used together because of the speech/vocal awkwardness it can present - that is mainly what I was asking. and if need be, I am willing to make those kinds of changes, but I like what I have and don't plan on making any late changes.
Phil

Moose said...

Phil - I am the absolute worst for that (as you will soon see with B.A.R., when I get it posted). Once a rhythm gets established for a vocal melody line - I become obsessed with things flowing and hate to force syllables... so I ruthlessly edit.

Sean - I did not think you needed so much to search out more variables... more a matter of getting comfortable with what you're singing, so it all hits in the groove. It just seems new and not comfortable yet. It always takes me awhile (even with stuff I write), unless it happens completely organically - which is rare.
I'm suggesting: keep singing it until you feel like you have it nailed in timing and performance... then put it back up.

Dunno... I like what you're doing...

Hmmmmm... Godfather harmonies - making an audition you can't refuse! /;)

Keeper said...

Sean-

If I did try to sing a lower harmony, it would be because there is no other available. I kinda feel like my voice has gotten worse, rather than better. I am willing to try it, but I am not optimistic about it. It's like a knife in my gullet to have seemingly lost my voice forever.... I love to sing, and love to do harmonies especially, but it seems now like that is a thing of the past for me...

I believe Moo has declined to sing on this one, so that leaves only me. We do have many other singers in the membership, but they are unresponsive, so we are back to me. Mass invites for this project have gone out to the vocalists group and nary a nibble. So you just work with what's available...

So if you are patient I will do my best Godfather low harmony.

MLINYHI said...

Fred
Dont hurt yourself! No production tricks on this that'll help? Chorus?

MLINYHI said...

Moose,

Only problem is time. I have tonight and tomm then I work for the next 4 nights. I can only sing for about an hour or 2 pushing my voice like that. Gotta squeeze in what i can. Plus some nights (sinus issues stress or whatever-it just doenst work right) So tryin to get it done cause I know people are waitin on it too. I doubt u guys wanna wait around a month for this.

Keeper said...

Sean-

It's actually easier to wait a little while until things are right for you and you can relax, than it is to pressure yourself like that. Just gotta be patient. The vocals are usually the hardest thing to get right, so I am for you being allowed to do this at your own pace. I actually advise that.... You can't really enjoy yourself is you aproach it with a lot of stress. Of these guys are like me, they will have 10 other projects in the wings to keep them busy while we wait for schedule/timing. If we wait a month, so be it. If it works out sooner, then that's cool too, but as you said, don't hurt yourself. If you push yourself too much you push the enjoyment right out of it. If we have to wait a littlewhile I know for a fact I will have plenty to keep me busy.

Really the enjoyment factor is the biggest part of this if you ask me. Some people actually enjoy pushing themselves. I do to a limited degree. Just pay attention to what you are feeling and stop when you feel like it. The productivity goes right out of it if you push past what your gut is telling you. Don't let "people waiting" be your motivation. I am sure the others will echo what I'm saying. I have dozens if unfinished projects of my own, and I know im my heart I will eventually get back to them. Most of them I stopped working on because I was no longer comfortable or otherwise occupied. Those are very valid reasons to not work on something. If it doesn't feel right, or you have more important things that need your attention so the singing has to wait, you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about. Take the time you need and don't feel pressure from any of us. This si supposed to be an "in your spare time" sort of thing. We aren't going anywhere (are we folks)?

Do it when it suits you Sean. That's my advice. I know I will be.

Keeper said...

I can help your pitch is a spot or two Sean. I think harmonies will help on the chorus, and I'm still going to be looking at alternate melodies for the chorus. Those are 3 things that could help this.

Yes I think you are once again at the top of your range, but you are well aware of it, so I'm not going to keep throwing that up to you. You seem to be hitting the notes. At times just barely but you are doing it. It might sit better if we treat it as a high harmony. I can help the pitch too I believe. When you get time do some more takes. So yeas we do have plans, but we'll see how effective they are... At least we do have plans. That in itself is significant. We'll know how well they work out once we get there... No worries...

Just enjoy life as much as you can. Practice singing at work etc. Take a cd with you in the car and practice singing to a voxless mix.

MLINYHI said...

Got nothing better tonight than the last one posted. I will work on it a while.
Fred,
The CD in the car is a good idea. I will try that out....
Repeating myself- I dont think I am going to get much different on the melody. Probably just a better recording.

Inngr8 said...

Yeah, Sean - it's not like we have a deadline or anything. Take whatever time you need and either you get there or you don't. I know it's easy to give advice when I'm not the one having to do the singing - I'm not even sure about all the considerations that you are having to make - all I know is that it is sounding like it was in my head, and your voice has the characteristics that I envisioned for it. And I'm sure there might be some studio magic out there to help. Slow and sure wins the race.

Moose said...

There you go, man... keep as cool as you can. Face piles of trials with smiles - it riles them to believe you perceive the web they weave...

Take it at your own pace, Sean - more fun for you, and better results for the guys. I do the CD in the car thing, too. LOL - I've been driving around screaming for a week getting this new song ready (haven't done one like it in years). The neighbors probably think I've lost it, sitting in the driveway screaming my fool head off!

As a side note - harmonies don't have to stack up on top of each other - they can also weave in and out. CSNY were masters of that. Yes, as well. So there's always possibilities.

Just taking a break from the headphones to drop off my two cents. I think I'll call it a day and go experiment with Moose tipping. /;)

Cheers!

Moose said...

Hmmm... I feel compelled to share this:

Pushing your voice to the top of it's range is not what injures it - in fact, any decent vocal coach will tell you it's the only way to increase your range (and why I'm not just a Baritone). It is not necessary to push HARD to hit your highest notes, but there is an unhealthy tendency to do so. Most singers get into trouble when they're performing nightly, and can't hear themselves like they should - so they wind up pushing hard and developing polyps on their vocal cords. You can do that without singing at the top of your range. I watched guys and girls that I worked on the road do it to themselves a number of times - but in all my years, I never lost my voice or was unable to perform... and during some periods of my road life, I 'screamed' for half the night - just not hard. It's about self-control and being able to hear yourself. I've always been a real pr*ck about being able to hear vocals on stage so I could do subtle things and not have to push hard (which usually makes me go out of tune and sound harsh anyway). Sing a lot. Don't push. Watch the weather.

Just some food for thought. I always listen for tips from others, and don't always think to share some of my personal experiences. Lurker. LOL

It's painful to hear about Keeper's damage. There are coaches that can help bring most cases back... but they're not cheap - and it is a long road to recovery. Take care o' them pipes, guys. Musician's Friend doesn't stock 'em!

Slainte!

Keeper said...

I've always heard the same thing about increasing your range by singing up there. I never did push it too hard that I recall. Never had my voice go out on my from singing too much. Never sung myself into hoarseness. At least not in one night.

My throat doctor seems to think that my polyp was a result of singing. I'm not totally convinced that this guy is not a quack though. I've been wondering what the hell I'm paying him for...

I've been singing in bands (some lead and some backing vocals) for 35 years. This just all of a sudden came up on me. I don't even think I had been singing a lot when this happened. Just woke up one day and I could feel it and I was hoarse. I tend to think it's enviroment, but it's a big mystery. I'm not beat yet...

Moose said...

You never know. It could have been triggered by something viral, or even allergies. Did you mention to the Doc that you were a singer? They often go to the obvious and don't look any further.

"It hurts when ya do that? Well, don't do that!" That about sums up my feelings about MOST doctors... not all. I feel fortunate to have known two that were compassionate, intuitive, learned and caring.

I got allergies very late in life - and I have to watch it in pollen season now, or I will strip my throat.

There was a woman vocalist in one of my groups that was inexperienced and developed polyps; losing her voice entirely. With care, she regained her voice gradually as we traveled and ended up stronger than she had begun. So - NO! Don't give up. Singing's too much fun (and satisfying for the soul)!

Keeper said...

Leo told me in a PM this morning that he was interested in singing on this one, and then in another he said, no that someone had already auditioned. I told him we need a harmony, and to not let it stop him from auditioning just because there were others. So yeah there is interest. Leo is a good singer, and a lower voice... I suggested to him to try out a lower harmony... We'll see how it goes...

There are others lurking about here. Sometimes it just takes some patience and give them time to get to it....

Inngr8 said...

I talked to my brother and he says he has cleared his schedule for tomorrow and will have vocals for us. All apologies, but after the equipment prob he got sick and then picked up some paying gigs. Also went to San Diego for the weekend and played a concert with Marvin Hamlisch. Voice is all better now and hopefully we will be moving forward again on this song.

Moose said...

Phil - is he offering up vocals on THIS song - or are you talking about the ones for TAKEN?

Curious Moose nuzzles the moldy cheese for tidbits.

ac said...

just got home and the inbox is full!! Sean, as the others have said, take your time mate. have fun with it,that's all we expect. the harmony idea sounds really interesting and could work, and Moose's idea of the weaving vocals sounded cool as well.
Keeper, get your voice back to normal before straining it again. The Leo connection has been on the back of my mind, but i was expecting him to come forward, i guess i'm going to have to give him a nudge.

Inngr8 said...

Taken - I've said it before and I'm sure many more times in the future - I'MA STOOGE!!! - Good catch, thanx.

Moose said...

Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk! Ohhh, a wise-guy eh?
Woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-OWW! Whadija hit me for?

I'm glad to hear he'll be back in the saddle again. /;)

Cheers!

MLINYHI said...

Tried recordin the vocals again. Hmmmmm betterer or worserer?

Inngr8 said...

Sean,
I liked it but it was really difficult to evaluate just the vocals. At first I thought it was a blank track - but I was patient and your singing finally showed. Could we get a track with newest edition of the vocals and the music together?

Moose said...

Phil - I was up early this morning, so I did a quick down'n'dirty mix of the latest mix and Sean's new vocal.

You'll have to scroll down to see it in the 4shared folder. It's labeled Sean Mixdown 3-25-09.

Cheers!

MLINYHI said...

Mix sounds good. I do like the melody and the mood of the whole thing. I can do better with the vocals though..at least I know I think I can:) Will try again in a few days...


Out of the 2 posted takes which do you think was better?

Inngr8 said...

Sean,
My personal preference is "seanmixdown". I think your vocals on that track have more passion and energy - and the music does have something to do with that perception, but more than that, I can hear that you are "owning" the song more. I'm not sure if it's my imagination, but it sounds to me like the second chorus is better than the first one - and if you just recorded the chorus once and used it in both spots then I probably just lost ALL credibility - but to my ear it sounds better. But... near the end of the chorus in both spots, it sounds like you are getting out of breath a little - one lung-full of air and lots of words to get thru. Just an observation, and I'm not sure what, if anything, you can do about it. Regardless - I like how the song is developing - great project.
"...at least I know I think I can..." sounds like someone has been spending time with the Little Train That Could.

ac said...

hell yeah!! it's starting to come together:) you sound much more at ease with the vocals now, i guess that cd in the car thing worked then!! i'll have to try it myself and start singing...

Moose said...

Second one. There's something to be said for practice - lol. I'm sure if you sing along a bit more, you'll nail it next time.

Try this Sean (or say, "Bugger off, Moose and mind yer own!): On the lower passages, sing close to the mic and push a lot of air, not volume; when you hit the high parts - back off... a lot. Also, you can sing partial lines and mix them together for the complete lyric instead of trying to do them in one breath. It is a common practice among pro singers. Folks don't tough it out like they did in the analog days. There's even one fanatic I read about that insists on singing one syllable at a time - an engineer's nightmare... ha!

It's sounding good, tho. /;)

MLINYHI said...

I was actually thinkin the first was a lil better:). I didnt analyze too deeply though. The second one I had the volume in the headphones up louder so I think I was singing louder too. I thought I was more hoarse. The timing may have been better though...
I will try those tips next time I give it a shot (Should be Sun night)

Thanks!!

Moose said...

Sean - I think that was the issue; timing. Other than dynamics, that's mostly what I was listening to. As I get more comfortable with a groove, that usually falls into place... then I shoot to get the tone, vibrato, pitch, etc...

I wouldn't think too hard about it, though... you've got everyone's ear. Just relax and own it, and I'm sure it will be fine.

Keep up the good work dooooode!

Moose said...

Phil - y'know, looking at the lyrics (trying out ideas for a graphic in my head), Rebirth really doesn't seem IMHO to go with your theme; but you have capitalized a phrase in your lyrics (as is traditional to do with the song title whenever it appears within the lyrics), that would seem a possible candidate; Siren Song.

What would Freud say?

javascript://javascript://subliminal smiley/

Inngr8 said...

Moose,
With the song progressing, you are right, we probably need to think of an appropriate title. Rebirth is ACs working title - I think that Siren Song might be a good choice. I had also considered First Kiss - but I'm not sure if that one is too obvious. Anyone have any more thoughts on the matter?

Moose said...

I'm going to wait on offering up a graphic until a title has been settled upon... it can make a difference in how I approach it. /;)

Inngr8 said...

Do we have any other titles under consideration? Anyone want to offer another suggestion? So far we have:

Siren Song

First Kiss

If we don't have any more recommended by Tuesday I think we should pick one of those.

ac said...

sorry once again for not coming in to check on you all but i've been sick as a skunk. must have caught some virus that really brought me down. starting to feel a bit better now. i love the siren song suggestion. really fits the whole mood

MLINYHI said...

Me like "Siren Song". I uploaded new vocals to separates under Siren Song. Tried a few of Moose's tips. Broke it down into parts and sang the lower parts closer /louder further. I have tried breaking the song up before but usually can hear it. Sometimes have a different approach each time which I think I can hear. This time I think it worked good though. Also sang with a little/lot? less force -which I think helped. Lot easier on the voice. Have to remember that:) Bad habit of pushing too hard which (I know) can ruin your voice.

Keeper said...

How about if you integrated both ideas, for a less common title? Something like "First Kiss Of The Siren", or "Kiss Of The Siren"....

Moose said...

Hmmmmm... 'Kiss Of The Siren' s'pretty cool too!

Moose said...

The vocals are without the rest of the mix (I did listen, and it sounds pretty good).

If Keeper doesn't beat me to it, I'll toss it in with the current mix and upload it in the morn.

MLINYHI said...

Cool. Thanks Moose.

Moose said...

I uploaded the current mix with Sean's new vocals here:
http://www.4shared.com/file/95806743/2d9fe973/SeanVoxSirenSong.html

For some reason I'm not seeing it in the folder... had a hard time getting it uploaded (?), but the above link will take you to it.

The vocals are a little forward in the mix (it was a rush job), but should work for a listen.

I'm starting to hear harmony now, and what to do with a bass line (most of its cool, but I can see some things I think a bass would normally do differently to tie everything in).

Listen to the chord that follows "found what she was after". I don't know at this moment whether it's in the guitars or the bass, but there seems to be a conflict there. Will look at it when I work on my bass audition.

Thanks!

Moose said...

Cripes! Ima idiot... have to scroll down to see the SeanVoxSirenSong.mp3 in the folder - LOL.

Keeper said...

Moose-

I haven't listened to this in awhile. Been busy on other projects (BAR). I should point out that if you are using older mixes, that is why the chord conflict. I went though it all and fixed that conflict a bit ago, and everything before the fix will have this conflict. If you go back in the convo you'll see me talking about it and finally working it out and fixing it. The conflict WAS between the clean finger picked guitar and the bass.

I'll put his vox in against the newer mix soon. Up to my eyes in the studio ATM.

Keeper said...

Moose, when you are looking at the files in the project page, there is no way to scroll down, so newer files may not be visible on the project page. What you have to do is click in the "TIME" column, until the arrow points down. That brings the newer files up to the top of the listing, and sorts them backwards in time from there, so the newest would be on the top.

ac said...

the vocals are sounding more and more convincing. tahnks for the effort Sean. I'm just laying back and enjoying the ride here. Kiss of the Siren has a really good ring to it!!

Keeper said...

It's a good idea to post links to your uploads even if they are not hotlinks (like Moose did just now), to avoid confusion.

I usually make links hot in my posts but it's easy enough to copy/paste from the message into the browser (if you include a link).

I've actually found a way to force 4shared to give me a link after uploading if it doesn't do it, but I don't want to overload people with these tricks...

Inngr8 said...

Looks like everyone is in agreement on changing the title to Kiss of the Siren. If that's just a pbwiki update I'll walk thru on the tutorial again and get it changed. Going once... going twice...

Inngr8 said...

Sean,
just listened to the latest version of the song - doesn't sound like you've left yourself with much room to improve - I suppose it COULD get better, but not by much. You sound very comfortable, and the lines are extremely fluid. High praise IMO. If I listen to this many more times, I'll start having flashbacks. Eerie how your vocals almost have me reliving it. Is it just me, or does this tune have some potential?

ac said...

I was looking at the roster and thinking it's about time we add Sean as lead vocalist.

Keeper said...

---------------
Quote: ac said...

"I was looking at the roster and thinking it's about time we add Sean as lead vocalist."
--------------

Go for it A. Let me know when it's done and I'll send out an update for the status to the membership...

Keeper said...

Also update the "Latest Mix" A, so browsers go right to it.

ac said...

updated wiki to include Sean as lead vocalist and latest mix

Moose said...

Keeper, I downloaded what was listed up top as the latest mix when I downloaded Sean's new vocals... so unless that wasn't the latest mix...?

F-Jam Alert said...

So what are you saying? AC linked to his separate instead of the mix?

Antonio?

ac said...

no mate the only time I touched the wiki on this project was about half an hour ago to include the latest mix of Sean's vocals and put him on the roster

F-Jam Alert said...

Moose he seems to have the right one linked... Maybe you need to refresh your browser?

Nice work Sean... I could do some slight pitch tweaks, and this will be dynamite! Just a hair to adjust on the pitch...

The advice really seems to have helped you on this Sean! You don't sound nearly as strained!

I really like it now!

ac said...

just noticed a file there that i hadn't seen before as well, ges guitar? anybody know anything about it?

Moose said...

Ai carumba... the latest mix is the one I did putting Sean's new vocals with what was previously listed as the latest mix (my browser is set to clear everytime I close Firefox). I was referring to the 'latest mix' I used for this that has the one chord clash in two places. NO worries.

I listened to the gesguitar... it isn't mixed with anything, and it's a short passage (lead?) of clean guitar.

I guess whoever it belongs to will speak up.

Cheers!

Keeper said...

Well your mix works fine Moose.

It's all making sense to me now. I was thinking Sean was getting better at making mixes, but now I see it's your mix we are listening to...

Sean...

If you are watching this, the confusion could have been avoided if you posted links...

When you are done uploading to 4shared it's supposed to give you links. If it doesn't give them to you right away click on the project folder in the left hand column. That should make it give you the link(s), and you can copy/paste them into the message. If you upload multiple files it gives you multiple links.

Just so yall know, it cuts way down on confusion to post links in your messages after uploading.

We eventually get things figured out if no links are posted but look at all the running around trying to figure things out that we did. Posting links would stop that...

MLINYHI said...

Hey Fred,

Yes the advice helped alot. I also turned up the mic so I didnt have to sing as loud. I think that helped alot too. I was pushing too hard
I will try to remember to post links from now on. The computer technical stuff gets to be alot sometimes.

MLINYHI said...

Hey Phil,

Was this inspired by the same girl as the one in forsake reality, or a different girl?

ac said...

there's a question that needs an answer phil!!!

MLINYHI said...

Im ok with the name either way-Kiss of the Siren or Siren song...but the song isnt about a kiss of the siren. It was kiss of the needle- also siren song is shorter and has alliteration..if you like alliteration.
Just a few thoughts. I dont find song title all that important. Stairway to Heaven could have been called Frogs Balls and it still woulda been one of-if not- the best rock songs of all time:)
IMHO

MLINYHI said...

AC, my follow up question is to ask if he is wanted by the FBI =)

MLINYHI said...

Moose,
Couple of questions on the mix..first, did you add much effects to the vocals? I think they were completely dry-unless I left something on the track from a prev recording. Also did you or do you have to mess with the levels much? I tried back off and moving closer-also adjusted the mic a little for the different parts but did notice some parts seemed louder than others.

Inngr8 said...

Two entirely different women. Two entirely different scars. And when I got out of the military I had a job offer from the FBI as an intelligence analyst... until they found out my percentage of disability disqualified me - so, had they been "looking" for me, that would have been the time they would have caught me. Not that I ever did anything that was actually illegal - in some countries.
I always thought I led a boring life, but now that I look back...

Moose said...

MLINIYHI, I did drop some verb and compression on them for this quick mix - and this was a quick mix, just to help out and allow the guys to hear your current vocals. Your original seps remain unchanged.

Yes, there are still some dynamic variations to tighten up (in production edits) - but they are considerably more consistent in dynamics and tone than the last vocal track I worked on. Marked improvements by my reckoning... aye.

There was the slightest bit of room ambiance on your vocals (which is unavoidable in most home recording situations), but nothing predominant to worry about. They were pretty clean... which as mentioned previously, is how you want the seps to be for engineering and production.

Keeper is snagging your vocals seps to go further with it... I believe he has taken on the production for this.

I'm currently working on a couple of bass auditions, the BAR project and several others; including 'Sir Not Appearing In This Film' from the round table of Camelot in 'The Holy Grail', and a Broadway musical adaptation of 'Taming of the Shrew', in which I play a new character, The Banana Man.

Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk! /;)

How about this for the song title: Injection Detection Rejection or How Sally Got The Point (just kiddin' around guys... I haven't had my coffee yet). Kiss Of The Siren is poetic (Siren = needle drug addiction, eh?).

Cheers!

Inngr8 said...

So it's NOT a sex song? It's a "drug" song? Oh my.

Keeper said...

That could be the final drum sep Moose. Any changes I would make would not be changes in the way it's played. I was talking about bass and guitar tweaks whn I spoke about "THE REST".


There are a few small things I might edit on the drums but it won't affect the "WHAT".

A couple examples would be to break up the loop that was used under the verse, so it's done with separate samples.

Another I might change would be to separate one of th samples I used which is a kick/crash sample. I'd split it up so it is sparate kick and crash, so I could pan the crash slightly, and not affect the panning of the kick. Kicks is usually panned with the bass (if it were panned at all), but is usually centered. Having this kick/crash together in one sample means I can't pan the crash cuz it'd affct the kick as well.


Nothing I do from here on out would change the "WHAT" for drums. Go ahead and work to it.

Keeper said...

Sorry folks I posted to the wrong project with the drum sep message. I'm trying to get my shit together....

Moose said...

***WARNING!*** ***WARNING!***

Keeper Overload!!! Step away from the Keeper!
(I thought I smelled sumpin sizzlin') /;)

Keeper said...

---------------
Blogger Moose said...

***WARNING!*** ***WARNING!***

Keeper Overload!!! Step away from the Keeper!
(I thought I smelled sumpin sizzlin') /;)
---------------

Nah not overloaded, just very busy, but that's how I have been for a long time. I stay this way by choice, just like you Moose.

I try to give F-Jam projects priority, but every once in awhile I gotta switch my focus to something non-F-Jam that has been waiting in private. You notice I take my time with things, just like everyone else.

I do have 10 other things going on behind the scenes, some of which you know about. One of the things I'm juggling in the background is getting my son's quarters ready for his visit from Alaska in about a week. I have some backup computer monitors I have to put up a shelf for and get them out of the way of setting up his room to stay in.... Just the normal everyday stuff like the rest of you all...

But make no mistake about it guys. I try hard to give F-Jam good attention and monitoring. You guys are good enough to bring your projects here to get them worked up, so I try hard to help keep things moving for yas. If I'm otherwise occupied it'sll be shortlived...

Not overloaded. I move slow as usual.

MLINYHI said...

All is quiet on the FJAM front

Moose said...

Shhh... they're listening.

Moose said...

I've uploaded a rough mix with a bass audition here:

http://www.4shared.com/file/96390287/f3d8777e/KOTS_with_New_Bass.html

I seem to be having a problem uploading today. Downloads are working fine...?

Keeper said...

Here's my 1st pass at PITCH correction. Before you say anything about it being dry, I am well aware of it....

I'll do another pass, do some quick timing tweaks, and then I'll put some effects and compression on it and do a real mix. This post is strictly to show you the difference in pitch, after tweaking. Next post should be final fix. It's sounding much better for pitch IMHO on this...

For the record I hear what Moose is talking about (I think), about the bad chord, in the chorus. It doesn't sound too bad in this mix. I get the feeling AC did this purposely. To me it feels like it's close. Might not be the exact right chord for that. It really doesn't sound that bad though. My ear goes to it just like his does, but when I listen closer to try to identify the problem it sounds ok...

That's all I'll say about it. I hear it too but can't say much more than that..


I gotta do some chores and I'll go at this second pass with fresh ears...

http://www.4shared.com/file/96402613/98623ab0/KOTS_Vox_Tweak_1.html<---Click this

Keeper said...

On the word "Needle" in the chorus. Right Moose? That what you are talking about with the bad chord? It really doesn't sound too bad in there now.

ac said...

downloads seem to be ok, Moose. the bass line adds a lot of colour to the song. in places it seems too busy to me, might be because of the volume level.
the Moose is on the loose again :)

Moose said...

AC, I intentionally kept the bass high in the mix and left it less bottomy so you could tell exactly what I was doing. Still, it's an audition - and may not carry the feel you want for this... I'll still upload the sep, in case there is something to be used from it.

Keeper, that chord seems fine - it's the one that's hit two times in the entire song; each located between the words 'what she was after' and 'all'. But perhaps it has a design that AC sees in this, but eludes me.

ac said...

i am aware that the bass is intentionally high, as to design in what i play and compose it is a bit of an overstatement. I play and compose by feel and while your more technical talk more often than not baffles me I follow it attentively. I've learned a few things with you all and am learning a few more as i go. the comments made on your bass line were my first impression on a first listen. i'll hear it a few more times and take it in before i give you a definite opinion. Be certain that the help that i'm getting here is extremely appreciated :)

Keeper said...

I am pretty sure that's the same chord I'm talking about Moose. That's the first chord of the chorus progression. I think he's playing the harmonic of a chord there. Arpeggio... I could be wrong. Same chords are repeated throughout the chorus:

http://fjamstudios.blogspot.com/2009/03/alt-rock-rebirth-bass-drums-and-vocals.html<---Click this

Hope I'm not wrong and confusing things....

Keeper said...

Yes it's doing the same chords repeated 4 times in each chorus. Sounds fine to me.

Keeper said...

Let me know if you want to know my opinion of the bass audition. It's actually beside the point if you cannot reconcile the feel to what you are feeling AC. That's why I ask rather than blurting out what I think...

I'm restraining myself. I will jump in with my opinion if invited though.

Keeper said...

Yeah I linked the wrong file to illustrate what I meant about the repeated chorus Moose. My apologies. I was trying to link to the voxless mix, rather than what I linked. The voxless mix illustrates what I mean about it repeating 4 times...

I should slow down and check my links.... Apologies...

ac said...

opinions are always welcome. i'll filter the bits that i agree with, and put the rest aside;)

Keeper said...

The bottom line is wether you like the feel or not AC. The rest is definitely beside the point.

My opinion is that I like it. To me the business it adds to it doesn't hurt it at all. It kinda feels more latin with his new bass.

The one thing I went to with his track is "duration". He tends to play more stacatto, meaning you tended to hold your notes longer than Moose does in general.

What it comes down to is wether or not you can reconcile the new feel. He has changed it in the feel department, but that is part of collaborating. It just comes down to wether you agree that the business doesn't hurt it. All of the terminology can go right out the window if you don't like the feel...

My suggestion is to listen to it for awhile and see if it grows on ya. Very often that's all it takes. Just to give it some time and see if you finally come to the same conclusion.

Don't be afraid to keep the old bassline if it doesn't grow on you. I did on one of my songs... And I felt a little bad because Pete did do some work on my song, but I just couldn't reconcile it after listening, and in the end I thanked him for his work and kept what I had. I am sure Moose has done the same thing on his projects, and would understand.

I like his audition, but you may never come to that. Listen awhile and give it some time to sink in and then decide. It feels more latin with his, where yours sounds pop. That might actually be what you want. And this is just my opinion.

Keeper said...

Let me find that voxless mix and see if it clears any of this up for you Moose. I made the mess with the wrong link, let me go find it and post the right one.

Keeper said...

Ok here's a good mix to demo my point about the chorus being the same progression repeated 4 times:

http://www.4shared.com/file/92182552/1dbd8f1a/rebirth-mix3.html<---Click this

And having said that, we are talking about the same set of chords in question. He might have a slight problem with intonation, but to me the chords he's using sounds right....

I want to say he's using an octave there. I'd have to get on the keyboard to back myself up, but the above mix should make what I'm saying more clear...

Hopefully, or it makes it even less clear.... Gulp.

Keeper said...

Ok I did a little more pitch correction, added some compression, and some verb. I could probably do a little more, but I am going to call this close enough for Freddy tweaks right now. It's much better for pitch now. Hopefully you agree.

I am still hearing some places where the vox get hard to hear, cuz Sean is singing quite low. So I suspect I didn't apply the compression right. I feel like I need to apply a limiter on this to help where Sean really belts it out.

If you guys agree that the pitch is better, I would recommend sending the dry tweaked back to Moose, and let him work with compression/limiting, and FX.

My gut is telling me to leave it alone now and move to guitar lead auditions. We can send it all to Moose later. I know for sure he has a better handle on compression/limiting than I.

My work on this was more about pitch, and I feel pretty good about it now.

http://www.4shared.com/file/96435832/dba07c7/KOTS_Tweak2.html<---Click this

MLINYHI said...

Hi all..

Track is sounding good to me. I have been hearing the conflict that Moose is referring to. It is pretty noticeable. Its at 1:53/54 on the older mix you just posted...am I right?
Vocals sound good. The first "but" in "but i couldnt find my voice" seems to jump in quickly. Im not sure if I did that or if it had something to do with the pitch stuff you did (Fred).
I also agree the levels are a little inconsistent..which is my fault. I think the chorus could use a little more "punch"?

It is sounding pretty good besides that:)
Have to work tonight so wont be able to comment much but will read when I can.

Moose said...

It's 4:42PM and I just got my Internet issue resolved (new modem)... heading for the country.

I uploaded the sep file for my finished bass audition, if you would like to experiment with it Keeper.

http://www.4shared.com/file/96603262/5259f253/KOTS_Moosbass.html

Have a great weekend, guys! Cheers!

ac said...

hi guys,
I've been listening to Moose's bass line and i'm happy to say that i'm really chuffed with it, I made a quick mix with his separate and the problem i pointed out with my first comment seem to disappear as soon as i lowered the volume of the bassline. the latin feel that Keeper mentioned is there and i love it!! there's a mixture of genres in the song that always attracts me in music.

F-Jam Alert said...

Cool. Sometimes all it takes is listening a bit to clear the pallette from the pre-conceived. Often times it grows on ya if you just allow it to.

So if you put you "Latest Mix" in the status window, and update the roster, we'll announce this status update...

Cheers

ac said...

I won't have time for anything updating today, it's the missus b-day and i'm taking her out for a proper celebration otherwise she'll disown me!! I'll be really cheeky and ask for one of you guys to sort that out if possible. If not tomorrow is another day...

F-Jam Alert said...

Whenever is fine. No hurry.

MLINYHI said...

Where'd everybody go? Very quiet again. Moose, did you get lost in the woods? I really hope its not hunting season. That could be a bad scene.

I guess real life has won the battle for now. I am back to work tonight:(

I hope someone is keeping an eye on Phil.

Moose said...

'Lost in the woods' looking for computer parts...

At the end of my low-tech weekend, a storm took out my friends' computer, and it took until yesterday afternoon to sort it out and hunt down parts in a rural area that doesn't offer much in the way of tech supplies. All is good now, tho.

Wheeeee! Cheers. /;)

MLINYHI said...

Whahappened to this song? We give up on it?

F-Jam Alert said...

---------------
QUOTE: MLINYHI said...

Whahappened to this song? We give up on it?
---------------

AC accepted Moose's bass. After that I guess it'd be open for leads...

Moose said...

Keeper, has the fixed vocal track been uploaded to the separates yet? You had made some mention of having me level it out and put a little compression on...

AC: Can I get a little luv in the roster for the bass? /;)

Cheers!

Keeper said...

---------------
Blogger Moose said...

Keeper, has the fixed vocal track been uploaded to the separates yet? You had made some mention of having me level it out and put a little compression on...
---------------


I was kinda hoping to buy some time on the vocal fixes by focusing on lead auditions. Having said that, I will put this on my immediate agenda.

I do have one pending drum audition that I promised someone else, before I get to it though.

:-)

Keeper said...

http://www.4shared.com/file/100308901/f868e50b/KOTZ_Ready_for_leads.html<---Click this

MLINYHI said...

"Keeper plans to totally rework Sean's vocal for pitch
correction"
Fred,
Just listened again to the vocal by itself before anything was done to it and I dont hear all that many pitch issues. If you feel it needs to be "totally reworked" I would say scratch it and let someone else have a go at it.

Keeper said...

Well I want to try working with your aped file Sean. I was working to Moose's file which he used a plugin on to correct it. Need to listen after a bit and maybe I'll agree with ya.

I got to the point where I was second guessing every move I made.
After a point I was maybe thinking notes were off that maybe weren't.

I feel the need to ground myself with a piano, and get a good idea what melody I should be working to.

It may be fine and I'll realize it after some time away from it. It's more about me and my ear that actual faults with the track.

For lack of a better way of saying it....

I 2nd guessed myself into a corner?

LOL

MLINYHI said...

Hey Fred,
I have never played around with those vocal pitch adjusters but I can understand how getting carried away could happen. I had posted a while back that the first "but" in "but i couldnt find my voice" seems to jump in quickly. I think what I am hearing is a pitch adjustment you made and to my ears it sounds worse instead of better. I am not sure how you approach the task but in my unprofessional:) opinion less is gonna be more.
When you start to sit down and listen can you send me a note or post explaining which notes sound out to you? I would like to listen to them before you adjust to hear what you are hearing/thinking.

Keeper said...

Well if you listen to this latest mix, that "but" part you mentioned has been fixed.


There was some confusion, because you didn't post links earlier, and I ended up getting ahold of Moose's adjusted track which was definitely out...


And yes I can be specific as to what is out.

What you have to understand is that what Moose used is automatic. I don't use those automatic adjustments much myself. My adjustments are done manually. It is done with MY ear, and not done automatically. The automatic plugins can work if you do it right. First you need to know what key and scale is being used in order to put in the parameters, and then you need to adjust how much correction is applied, and then to certain words, and not the whole track.

Doing this manually can be hard especially when a person bends phrases and does a lot of runs like you do. I end up having to correct parts of words, instead of whole words or phrases.

I can definitely tell you where Moose's corrected track was out. That's really all I've tried to work with so far. So I want to go back and work with your virgin track.

Obviously since Moose tried to apply automatic correction before I ever got to it, he heard the "out of key" thing in your vocals too. So this has really gotten confused because of several factors...

Doing this by ear is usually not too hard...

Listen to the latest mix. You'll see I corrected the "but" thing you mentioned.

I can show you specifically what I am doing, so you know what I'm doing. It's usually easy to hear when you are out to me.

A lot of this comes from not taking enough breaks when behind the console.

When things are quiet here I am usually busy working on things big time here. It's not like a lyricist who can post his work and then wait. My work is never ending, and I have to force myself to stop at times because my results go way down with fatigue.

Like for instance I ended up saving one of these renders with verb on it. To me it's just easier to start over and start with your virgin track. Lots of factors.

I will be more than glad to be very specific as to what I'm hearing. A lot of it to me is timing too.

MLINYHI said...

Cool. lemmee know.
One thing I do hear-which is timing- is the first line. I think I actually got a little too comfortable and kinda delayed it a little bit. It was intentional but I hear it now.
Anyway, some things I may have done intentionally which you are hearing out. Dunno.

Keeper said...

Sean-

I am going to get your aped track and put it in and start showing you what I am hearing. What we are talking about is making a track radio ready, and nothing but that. The less is more thing does not apply to this scenario. All I am doing here is fixing things that most listeners would not overlook, in order to keep you from having to retrack.

Since you use Sonar and render your tracks I assume they should line up with my software just by using the beginning starting point.

But there is a method we use that guarantees alignment the way you had intended it...

Watch this video and see what I mean:

http://fjamhelp.blogspot.com/2009/02/transferring-clicks.html><---Click this


You don't hear pitch and timing problems on the radio, or on cds. So if you want to do a "professional" track you need to adjust them out. It would make life much easier for me if you retracked until it is right, but I have been trying to save you that.

I can be VERY specific as to what would fly on pro tracks and what would need to be retracked.

I can also illustrate how I can correct most vocals. I can do yours too but they are harder than a lot because you bend words.


Having said this, let me just begin to illustrate using your virgin track... That will clarify what I'm taking about and what I do.

Keeper said...

it is becomming more and more obvious to me now that my biggest mistake has been in using Moose's corrected track instead of your aped file Sean. The differences in pitch is enourmous, and your virgin track is much closer... Some small problems, in comparrison. The second time you sung the chorus you couldn't hit the high notes like you did on the first time around (the old range problem rares it's head again), but all in all your pitch is much better.

Moose did not force me to use his corrected track, so I want to be clear on this.... It's not actually his fault. He told me it was corrected.

I should have gone and gotten your virgin track. So I take some responsibility on this. But the communication was really poor on this. Your tracks were pretty much overlooked because you didn't use links, and I latched onto Moose's track. He probably should not have uploaded his corrected, but he was just trying to help.

Really this has been a communication problem more than anything. Starting with your lack of links in your posts... So as I said before this happened dues to multiple factors, all of which are pretty harmless. I am saying this so we all learn from this. All 3 of us made some harmless mistakes and it has eneded up here...

So really not knowing all of this before I maintain that my assertion to start over with virgin tracks was a good one. It led me to know what I now know.

Your virgin aped is indeed in much better shape all the way around.

So now let me listen again and tell you what I think needs to happen to make this vocal track radio ready....


It's going to be easier than my first attempt with Moose's track. His correction obviously moved things the wrong way, which can happen if the wrong input is entered..

I'm taking a break and will continue soon. I feel like we are in good shape using this virgin track..

Watch this space...

Keeper said...

Once we got down to some real communication the problem was quickly identified....

My fault as much as anyone's...

Keeper said...

Ok I just copy/pasted the first chorus over the 2nd one where he couldn't keep up hitting the high notes. Now if Moose can compress this and even out the level, we should be good to go. There are a few places where I think he is dragging, like on the word "dangerous", but it's nothing major I guess... You're up Moose.

http://www.4shared.com/file/101145134/4169c75d/KOTS_Edited_Voc.html<---Click this

Moose said...

I just uploaded the comp'd vocal to the seps folder:

http://www.4shared.com/file/102468107/1ac2c5b7/KOTS_Edited_Voc_DS_Comp.html

I didn't add any effects - if you think it needs anything else, let me know.

Cheers!

Keeper said...

Thanks Moose... It wouldn't hurt my feelings if you made a mix to use for auditioning leads over... Basically handing the mix over to you. Don't need too many hands on the mix at this point.

Once we get the performances done then whomever wants to can mix with the separates, but for now I'm perfectly happy to let you post the "Latest Mix".

Anyone save me some times and tell me the key/chords used on this?

Thanks...

Keeper said...

I can post the separates I have for this. Might kill two birds with one stone. Letting you do a mix, and possibly identifying the chords problems you guys heard before. I guess I hear it too, although it doesn't offend my ear like it does yours. I'd be hard pressed to identify it myself. You are definitely better suited to this than am I.

ac said...

first of ll i'd like to apologize for my long absence but some family problems have forced me to travel (twice!!) away from my music. It's been stressful but I think I managed to get things sorted.
I've following from a distance, though. I've just uploaded a text file with the chords for the song for reference on to the separates folder.
http://www.4shared.com/file/102486204/de62e306/kiss_of_the_siren_chords.html

as to the comment on the strange chord I'm so used to playing it and hearing it this way that i don't see it. if you could point it out for me I would appreciate it.
thanks to all for keeping this alive!!

Keeper said...

As soon as I get caught up with RL here I'll upload my seps. Having those to listen to individually may help Moose and Sean to identify exactly what and where the guitars go astray. They both seemed to agree WHERE it was occuring.

Should be tonight sometime... after supper.

Hope it's not the illness that is in the news these days Antonio. As if we haven't faced enough with the finances recently. Now the illness is heaped on top of that too. Seems like nothing but bad news lately....

Keeper said...

http://www.4shared.com/file/102543973/3a60c115/KOTS_Drums_Keeper.htmlhttp://www.4shared.com/file/102543579/d3afd16f/KOTS_Dist_Gtr_Keeper.htmlhttp://www.4shared.com/file/102543234/cc3d7e53/KOTS_Clean_Gtr_Keeper.htmlhttp://www.4shared.com/file/102543018/f4398494/KOTS_Bass_Keeper.htmlhttp://www.4shared.com/file/102542783/fda97b5/KOTS_Synth_Keeper.html

Keeper said...

Try this again. LOL


http://www.4shared.com/file/102543973/3a60c115/KOTS_Drums_Keeper.htmlhttp://www.4shared.com/file/102543579/d3afd16f/KOTS_Dist_Gtr_Keeper.htmlhttp://www.4shared.com/file/102543234/cc3d7e53/KOTS_Clean_Gtr_Keeper.htmlhttp://www.4shared.com/file/102543018/f4398494/KOTS_Bass_Keeper.htmlhttp://www.4shared.com/file/102542783/fda97b5/KOTS_Synth_Keeper.html

Keeper said...

http://www.4shared.com/file/102543973/3a60c115/KOTS_Drums_Keeper.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/102543579/d3afd16f/KOTS_Dist_Gtr_Keeper.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/102543234/cc3d7e53/KOTS_Clean_Gtr_Keeper.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/102543018/f4398494/KOTS_Bass_Keeper.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/102542783/fda97b5/KOTS_Synth_Keeper.html

Moose said...

Popped in due to notifications.

Overwhelmed with trying to cover expenses for the month and to meet deadline to write/produce acoustic theme music for an upcoming festival here in VA. Ai carumba!

If this is still progressing after the dust settles, I'll be glad to offer more contributions.

Stay healthy everyone - Cheers!
M0o53

MLINYHI said...

Did everyone forget about this song?

Keeper said...

You and Antonio are both free to do mixes Sean. I guess if nobody does soon I'll jump in and do it.

F-Jam Alert said...

The "Latest Mix" that is on the project page here is good enough for leads to be auditioned over, if people choose to. It's not really dependent on a mix being done by anyone. When i get caught up on a few others that I've been working on I will think about doing a lead for this. I've actually already put up an idea that didn't fly with AC. Moose and I thought it worked, and actually Moose talked about auditioning based on my guitar part, so maybe that will happen in the meantime.


There doesn't seem to be any rush of guitarists to audition on this so maybe it's just as well that I am focusing on other projects.

Really there is nothing stopping people if they are so inclined.

ac said...

I'll try to work on this, this weekend. It has been a bit neglected but not forgotten.

ac said...

auditioning for my own project. hehehe!! just played around with some leads on this and would appreciate some feedback. Still can't paste the link in comments (any ideas?). the file is called kiss of the siren leads 1

F-Jam Alert said...

Is it giving you a link after upploading?

ac said...

no, I have to refresh the page and get the link that way.

F-Jam Alert said...

So do I (have to refresh), and then it gives me the link. So you are saying once you get the link to show you can't copy it into the buffer?

Are you using the copy button? That never works for me either. I highlight the link and right click and copy. Then I have it.

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